Was xp loss in pvp a good idea?

[Softcore PK]

Originally Posted by oldfish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

God softcore... you know, like when youre pvping? This is the problem right there, the devs are listening to these people, who dont like to pvp, and want a purple server so they can fight over whos gonna sit on a camp for 12 hours after 20mins of pvp.

Well hang on, let's discuss this calmly and not resort to thinly veiled personal attacks. Wolfram brought up a good point: you can't please everyone!

What you're saying is that this xp loss discourages pvp, and I'm sure to some extent you're right. But for a lot of us, pvp was not dying to the same person/people over and over and over again just to be a bother. On live, when I died I lnsed. Dying wasn't something that happened several times a day, even as an elf purist who attacked everyone and everything in sight. And there did seem to be a lot of pvp happening.

My fear is that without this xp loss, pvp will lose a lot of its meaning and laughable griefer guilds like Holocaust will bindrush nonstop when they know they're beat, just to disrupt whatever their betters are doing. PvE is a huge part of this game whether you want it to be or not, and this xp loss seems almost necessary. Didn't VZTZ eventually have to have GM enforced lns because none of the guilds were able to accomplish anything due to bindrushng?

Originally Posted by VanEyck [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Classic RZ, VZ, and TZ had no pvp experience loss. Am I wrong?

This isn't classic, though. This community does have a lot of the mean players, and not many of the nice ones. On VZ, there were player enforced rules that everyone followed. Here, the community at large could care less about the niceties we all used to abide. In a way we kind of ruined it for ourselves, and now we're being penalized for not making efforts to play nice and respect one another.

You of all people should like the exp loss, it encourages lns and honorable play.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like...in a typical pvp setting? You know large guild battles have lots of deaths right?

Right, the more players involved the more deaths there will be. But people should understand that once they are dead, they are dead and they should leave the fight. Since people don't understand or agree with this, we are forced into a system where we all have to hurt more for our deaths. And it's a very smart idea, like a sliding scale.

Die once and lns? Small penalty. Die and bindrush a couple times? Bigger penalty. Become well-known as a bindrusher that refuses to lns everytime and are CCed without a second thought by everyone that kills you? Huge penalty.

[stormlord]

Another thing to keep in mind is that PvP MMORPGs have ALWAYS had trouble. They're always struggling. This server is slowly losing people, but I doubt that's because of this experience loss. But on the other hand, I spare no time in saying that SOME people DO leave the server because of the experience loss when you die in pvp.

Look at Eve-Online. If PvP really was IN then it would have millions of active players, not 100-200,000. PvP is a hardcore mechanic. Without severe restrictions on how PvP happens in a game, you will cripple your population. WoW, for example, has quite a few restrictions. One of my friends plays it and has only once or twice took part - and has played for several months. That should tell you that it's not PvP that makes WoW good. Because if it were, I'd be hearing stories from my friend about how he was griefed on his way to the land of milk and honey.

[Lovely]

Went way to fast to 50. -100% exp modifier on the next server please

[Softcore PK]

If they leave because of the pvp death penalty, why would they play EQ in the first place?

I'm sure with all my pve deaths tallied up, I've eaten over 2 levels worth of exp loss. And the pvp deaths have probably resulted in like 20% of one level or less.

[Potus]

Originally Posted by Softcore PK [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't classic, though.

Sweet, get rid of the stupid grinding then. I look forward to 2x current exp rate and a removal of stupid crap like race/class exp penalties which never made sense and were always brought up in community discussions involving Abashi.

Right, the more players involved the more deaths there will be. But people should understand that once they are dead, they are dead and they should leave the fight. Since people don't understand or agree with this, we are forced into a system where we all have to hurt more for our deaths. And it's a very smart idea, like a sliding scale.

Die once and lns? Small penalty. Die and bindrush a couple times? Bigger penalty. Become well-known as a bindrusher that refuses to lns everytime and are CCed without a second thought by everyone that kills you? Huge penalty.

"Sorry guys, I'm dead, can't help us contest Trakanon, don't want to lose hours of exp and delevel to 59!" <---this is seriously what you're advocating on a PVP SERVER.

[VanEyck]

Originally Posted by Softcore PK [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You of all people should like the exp loss, it encourages lns and honorable play.

Thank you for that compliment. I have the same issues with bind rushing that you do. Discouraging bind rushing is a good idea, but I don't see why it has to involve my precious hybrid exp bar. If someone dies in PVP, they should be forced to take a time out to med before they can attack again. This is a better deterrent to bind rushing than exp loss, because in a raid or camp situation exp always takes a back seat to winning control of the content. Time wasted now in a clutch battle is always more significant than time wasted later. Once the upper hand has been achieved it will be easier to hold on to if you are allowed the same recovery time as your opponents are.

Originally Posted by Lovely [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Went way to fast to 50. -100% exp modifier on the next server please

Nice. Have anything to add regarding the topic of this thread?

[oldfish]

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Sorry guys, I'm dead, can't help us contest Trakanon, don't want to lose hours of exp and delevel to 59!" <---this is seriously what you're advocating on a PVP SERVER.

Yes, thats exactly what softcore PK and the rest are advocating, the means to poopsock in peace on a pvp server.

Dont have the zerg to poopsock? Stay home.

That reminds me of some server, it starts with P and ends with 99blue.

[Softcore PK]

Originally Posted by VanEyck [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you for that compliment. I have the same issues with bind rushing that you do. Discouraging bind rushing is a good idea, but I don't see why it has to involve my precious hybrid exp bar. If someone dies in PVP, they should be forced to take a time out to med before they can attack again. This is a better deterrent to bind rushing than exp loss, because in a raid or camp situation exp always takes a back seat to winning control of the content. Time wasted now in a clutch battle is always more significant than time wasted later. Once the upper hand has been achieved it will be easier to hold on to if you are allowed the same recovery time as your opponents are.

I have a lot of respect for you and yours [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It really is unfair that players such as yourself have to suffer because of the actions of others. But without this xp loss, there would be a lot more bindrushing. This thread, and the other players that are pushing for no exp loss, are proof enough of that. And your solution of making them respawn at bind with no mana would help things, but 5-10 minutes of recovery time between each bindrush is not enough to stop these people from griefing. Even with the xp penalty in place it is a problem, but after 2-3 attempts they all seem to stop.

When you're at a camp with a fast respawn time that needs to be kept clear and timed, it does not take much at all for a player to disrupt a group. Even with the advantages of them being naked and needing to med, they will keep coming back. And with no deterrent to them for doing so, a lot of them WILL keep coming back until they manage a "win" by catching you at a very bad time.

Really it comes down to deciding if you want to put up with slight exp loss, or more wiped groups from more griefers. I feel that the xp loss is preferable, as this approach penalizes the bad guys more than it does the rest of us. Bindrushers will (and do, just ask Holocaust) lose more xp in pvp than people who honor lns. Without the xp loss, the griefers are given an advantage over the honorable players. Since they don't lose anything for dying over and over, they will do it until you lose. And since you're the good guys, you won't do the same to their camps in return.

Or even worse, you do end up going after them with the same tactics they use on you. Then everyone loses.

[oldfish]

Originally Posted by Softcore PK [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you're at a camp with a fast respawn time that needs to be kept clear and timed, it does not take much at all for a player to disrupt a group. Even with the advantages of them being naked and needing to med, they will keep coming back. And with no deterrent to them for doing so, a lot of them WILL keep coming back until they manage a "win" by catching you at a very bad time.

Some pvp might disrupt his PVE. Certainly that is self-evident why this is bad?

Also check out softcorepk's slick use of words like "bindrushing" and "griefers" to describe pvp and pvpers.

[Slave]

Originally Posted by Softcore PK [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It really is unfair that players such as yourself have to suffer because of the actions of others. But without this xp loss, there would be a lot more bindrushing. This thread, and the other players that are pushing for no exp loss, are proof enough of that. And your solution of making them respawn at bind with no mana would help things, but 5-10 minutes of recovery time between each bindrush is not enough to stop these people from griefing. Even with the xp penalty in place it is a problem, but after 2-3 attempts they all seem to stop.

When you're at a camp with a fast respawn time that needs to be kept clear and timed, it does not take much at all for a player to disrupt a group. Even with the advantages of them being naked and needing to med, they will keep coming back. And with no deterrent to them for doing so, a lot of them WILL keep coming back until they manage a "win" by catching you at a very bad time.

Really it comes down to deciding if you want to put up with slight exp loss, or more wiped groups from more griefers. I feel that the xp loss is preferable, as this approach penalizes the bad guys more than it does the rest of us. Bindrushers will (and do, just ask Holocaust) lose more xp in pvp than people who honor lns. Without the xp loss, the griefers are given an advantage over the honorable players. Since they don't lose anything for dying over and over, they will do it until you lose. And since you're the good guys, you won't do the same to their camps in return.

Or even worse, you do end up going after them with the same tactics they use on you. Then everyone loses.

This is just all true.

Without consequences and rewards, PvP is not fun nor even tenable. If you increase even one side of the equation, it has a significant positive impact on PvP, both in quantity and quality.

We have a weak consequence and basically zero reward system in place here. To remove the few little parts of this "Equation of Fun" that we are clinging to now would instantly tip the fragile balance into oblivion.