Poll item looting or no?

[greatdane]

Your assuming item loot will scare away blue players. Could you imagine for a second that item loot might not scare people away? Might even possibly attract more players? they already have a geared out lvl 60 all nice and safe on blue99 why not take a risk on r99? I say people who are comming over from blue p1999 to red99 are looking for change. maybe to take more risk.

But what gives you that impression? That's what I want to know. Those arguing for itemloot seem to think it's for the benefit of everyone. It's for the benefit of those who want itemloot, nobody is denying that, and there are certain merits to itemloot that you don't get without it. What you can't dismiss, however, is that there are similar and arguably more severe problems with itemloot than without it and, much more importantly, the majority is against it. How can you guys ignore that in every discussion? It is beyond me how you can deduce that itemloot will attract more players when you can plainly see that more are against it than for it. I'm not even talking about just the polls and threads in this forum, although that should be enough of an indication. I'm talking about history. VZTZ was more popular without itemloot than with it, and itemloot was removed from every live server that had it because it caused more problems than the benefits it offered. What is it about these facts that gives you the idea that itemloot will make the server more popular, not less popular? I really honestly would like to know. It's completely against the most fundamental logic of the discussion.

[Amuk]

Good sources tell me RZ was a blue server with red names, decent.

[Amuk]

"I hope there is an influx of pro-item loot supporters and you get to enjoy that mage"

Haven't seen one significant VZ/TZer support item loot, but keep tellen yourself these random board warriors that say I remember RZ 12 years ago and Item loot was great are good at pvp. I'll enjoy the bath of tears from people if you go with it, while playing my mage.

[Amuk]

I wouldn't take that insult ppl who play mages fuck this guy.

[Amuk]

No place for rogues with item loot in classic buddy, going to be very sad.

[gloinz]

Originally Posted by Amuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No place for rogues in classic buddy, going to be very normal

fixed

[Kraz]

you guys are getting way off track... fucking rednecks

[nilbog]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But what gives you that impression? That's what I want to know. Those arguing for itemloot seem to think it's for the benefit of everyone. It's for the benefit of those who want itemloot, nobody is denying that, and there are certain merits to itemloot that you don't get without it. What you can't dismiss, however, is that there are similar and arguably more severe problems with itemloot than without it and, much more importantly, the majority is against it. How can you guys ignore that in every discussion? It is beyond me how you can deduce that itemloot will attract more players when you can plainly see that more are against it than for it. I'm not even talking about just the polls and threads in this forum, although that should be enough of an indication. I'm talking about history. VZTZ was more popular without itemloot than with it, and itemloot was removed from every live server that had it because it caused more problems than the benefits it offered. What is it about these facts that gives you the idea that itemloot will make the server more popular, not less popular? I really honestly would like to know. It's completely against the most fundamental logic of the discussion.

The only certainty item loot dictates is that if you die in pvp, within whatever rules, you can possibly lose a piece of loot. Everything else proclaimed are assumptions based on your opinion. I do not personally think item loot would instantly garner more population, nor do I see that it would prevent it. That is not something you NOR I can claim with certainty.

As you use VZTZ for example, I will try to analogize p99. I was told, at length, how population would greatly suffer from no soulbinders, no translocators, nonclassic exp rates, and no boxing. I agree with that argument for about a month. At the end of that time (however long it may be before people kill the first bosses), the new server feel is gone, and people leave.. because its the same old thing. Do you think the same amount of people would play p99 if it still had all of these things? I would say no, because PEQ has them. I will say, if I was casting future predictions that item loot might even provide sustainability because it is DIFFERENT. It is classic, albeit not for all servers, and it is different than what is available elsewhere. But, that's a guess, and I don't predict the future in absolutes.

So, I see it as the same argument. You are trying play a numbers game with something that isn't as transparent as you may think. Time determines these things, and communities forge their own opinions. If you tried to argue for the inclusion of translocators, global ooc, and soulbinders, which would most definitely "help" population, I believe it would be shot down by the current community, where once it was the majority vote.

What I'm trying to say.. is you don't know what would hypothetically happen, nor do I. But I won't presume to speak for the population and accurately gauge numbers. That's a fallacy. You mentioned live pvp servers as well as vztz. Where are those servers now?

Originally Posted by Amuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Haven't seen one significant VZ/TZer support item loot, but keep tellen yourself these random board warriors that say I remember RZ 12 years ago and Item loot was great are good at pvp. I'll enjoy the bath of tears from people if you go with it, while playing my mage.

Bolded your only apparent experience with EQ. If you do have real arguments, I have yet to see them. I'd like to know your entire history of eq playing and age.


tldr : Make up your own mind. Don't listen to me or anyone else.

[Knuckle]

All we are saying is that, item loot was removed, and VZTZ went from around 40 some odd total pop. with 2 boxxers, to around 200, and reached 300 at its peak. Item loot has been introduced two seperate times and alot of players stopped playing. I personally did quite well and acquired alot of raid/high end loots and it was super easy to farm/camp as a two boxxer if your lewt was snagged. I still think the pop. will be higher without item loot, and I'm a proponent of item loot.

[greatdane]

We're all just theorizing, whether we say that itemloot will reduce the population or that absence of itemloot will make PvP meaningless. These are just discussions, largely to pass the time, and you said yourself that you won't pay much attention to it when it comes to determining the server's ruleset. That said, you have to at least agree that history clearly proves the problems with itemloot and the obvious connection between any given server's popularity and its presence or absence of itemloot. That's a valid argument. None of us are psychic, but what can we even discuss if past evidence and logical likelihood aren't allowed? Since Rogean started multiple discussions about the server ruleset, I take that to mean that we're encouraged to do just that.

As for your pre-p99 anecdote, I'd have to point out, as one of those people who were arguing in favor of boxing, that you're presenting a somewhat biased view of it. At the time, it seemed unthinkable that the server would end up with a 500+ population, so we proposed that boxing should be considered until such a time as it wasn't necessary. If the server turned out to have a population of 50-100, boxing would have been necessary. The launch numbers weren't even too far from that mark, and it was quite a while before the server population had grown to the point where non-US players didn't suffer from underpopulation. To this day it dips down under 200 when you're asleep. As for the soulbinders and that shit, we simply suggested that if the server population turned out to be so low that people couldn't easily find groups near their starting zones and couldn't find other players to bind them elsewhere, temporary soulbinders were a possible option. There's no need for hyperboles, I don't remember anyone claiming the world would end without soulbinders and translocators. As soon as it became evident that the population had grown to the point where boxing wasn't necessary in order to play the game, it became a moot point. That doesn't mean it wasn't a valid argument at a time when 100+ was almost unheard-of on an emu server.

There's nothing wrong with discussion, and the blind dismissal of all anti-itemloot sentiments is a little primitive, as are most of the arguments presented by the pro-itemloot crowd. You also have to acknowledge that PvP servers have historically been less popular than PvE servers and that itemloot only exacerbates that difference, even if you believe red99 will somehow be the opposite.