Bow damage formula?

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The way I interpret these numbers: Since this is assuming you're rooting the mob, time to kill isn't super important since you're not taking damage you'll need to heal. Summoning Tolan arrows gives you 20 per 15 seconds or 1.3 seconds each. So saving 6 arrows at the cost of 6.5 seconds per kill in time spent shooting means 6.5 seconds more spent shooting while saving 7.8 seconds summoning arrows. So with this (unhasted) perspective Bow of the Huntsman beats out Sarnak War Bow.

Now, this is napkin math with multiple serious caveats. This isn't taking into account hit rate, haste, or the fact that the average damage per hit will differ from the modal damage based on level difference, offense stats vs defense stats, etc. I think my takeaway is that no matter which of these 4 bows you have you're gonna ball out, and which you choose is as much down to personal style and personal access as anything else. If I had a Sarnak bow I'd try it out and see if I liked it more than the Huntsman. But these numbers reassure me that I'm not really at any disadvantage with my Huntsman.

Fair point. The way I view it is the difference in arrows/kill speed doesn't really matter much either way, especially if you're not going to bow down a mob's entire hp bar in most cases, which leaves a lot of room for preference. Only reason I'm using sarnak war bow right now is because the melee stats are nice and it was the easiest decent bow to obtain but I like the raincaller for added dex (swarmcaller) and heavier double damage hits on initial pull (I don't have a higher damage bow). I like snaggles skydarkener theory, I'd like to try them all honestly.

Do we have a formula for max damage?

I wanted to try parsing str vs dex to see how that works out. I don't have dex gear but figured if DPS/max hit does or doesn't go down after removing a bunch of str gear then we'll know. If it doesn't I'll remove dex gear. Still new to parsers so I'll have to figure out how to extract the log of individual hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do we have a formula for max damage?

It has not been finalized yet. From the findings so far the TLDR is Archery damage uses the melee damage formula, but it has a few special rules:

1. Archery damage appears to be divided by 2 before applying the main hand damage bonus, at least for BFG.

2. There may be a damage modifier that slightly increases Archery damage. Bcbrown thinks it is a flat +1 to weapon damage, but I am not sure if that is correct. Not enough testing has been done, and Bcbrown is not very forthcoming with his data. Someone else probably needs to do some testing who can provide more accurate data.

3. We don't know yet if STR, DEX, or neither is used for Archery damage. In the EQEMU code there is a special exception to use DEX instead of STR for Archery damage, but this could be a bit different on P99. Someone just needs to do some testing with different STR and/or DEX values.

4. BFG specifically uses the 2h damage table when worn in the primary hand.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It has not been finalized yet. From the findings so far the TLDR is Archery damage uses the melee damage formula, but it has a few special rules:

1. Archery damage appears to be divided by 2 before applying the main hand damage bonus, at least for BFG.

2. There may be a damage modifier that slightly increases Archery damage. Bcbrown thinks it is a flat +1 to weapon damage, but I am not sure if that is correct. Not enough testing has been done, and Bcbrown is not very forthcoming with his data. Someone else probably needs to do some testing who can provide more accurate data.

3. We don't know yet if STR, DEX, or neither is used for Archery damage. In the EQEMU code there is a special exception to use DEX instead of STR for Archery damage, but this could be a bit different on P99. Someone just needs to do some testing with different STR and/or DEX values.

4. BFG specifically uses the 2h damage table when worn in the primary hand.

Melee also uses (offense + str) for max hit, we also have to consider it may use archery instead of offense? For 60 rangers it is a small 12 points difference but it might account for a small discrepancy since it is part of the multiplier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee also uses (offense + str) for max hit, we also have to consider it may use archery instead of offense? For 60 rangers it is a small 12 points difference but it might account for a small discrepancy since it is part of the multiplier.

Melee damage uses weapon skill. So your Archery skill should be used instead of whatever weapon skill is in your primary hand. But I don't know if STR, DEX, or neither is used for Archery damage. That needs to be tested still.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by TytosOfEight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately, you forgot to account for the proc damage from the Gleed bow. I remember using it with a rusty halberd, killing the 3 blue Barbs in Perma at 51ish, and that thing would proc 15-16 times per fight. It was doing more than 1/3 total damage, and sometimes up to half my bow damage. It will use fewer arrows. Unhasted it will proc more too. It's great because the damage the output is the same for rooted vs. unrooted mobs, because the proc works regardless.

Good point. At 34% haste you'll have 11.5 Earthshaker swings per minute or 19.6 Swarmcaller swings per minute. If your dex gives you 1.5 procs/minute that's a 13% proc chance per swing on the Earthshaker and a 7.6% proc chance on the Swamcaller. Multiplying those percentages by the proc damage of 81 gives an expected proc damage per arrow of 10.5 or 6.2 respectively. A pretty considerable contribution when the modal damage is 69 or 51, respectively.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. It was I who showed that Archery has it's damage divided by 2 and it has a global damage modifier in the EQEMU code. Not yourself.

It's been common knowledge for years that archery damage isn't doubled like melee is.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do we have a formula for max damage?

I wanted to try parsing str vs dex to see how that works out. I don't have dex gear but figured if DPS/max hit does or doesn't go down after removing a bunch of str gear then we'll know. If it doesn't I'll remove dex gear. Still new to parsers so I'll have to figure out how to extract the log of individual hits.

I did some testing against Bloodmaw the other day. 15 stacks each with four different str/dex combinations. Huntsman, Tolan's, and mainhand was always a 1her. I think max damage and the impact of str/dex is going to require much larger sample sizes, unfortunately; I don't think the measured max hits here are the true max hits and I don't see anything conclusive in these results.

I don't think I have the patience to repeat the experiment with 30 or 40 stacks of arrows but I might rerun against a blue con like a frost giant elite or something. If you want to do some parsing either DSM or I can help with the analysis, but personally I've found the most convenient way to do it is with Unix utilities, which I think you can install on windows.

The command I use to isolate the damages looks like this:

grep "You hit Bloodmaw" log_file| awk '{print $10}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -k2

Where log_file is whatever you named the file with the fights you want to analyze.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's been common knowledge for years that archery damage isn't doubled like melee is.

If something is common knowledge, then kindly link to the wiki page or thread you got it from next time. My point was that myself and TytosOfEight provided the source/data that backed up our conclusions.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did some testing against Bloodmaw the other day. 15 stacks each with four different str/dex combinations. Huntsman, Tolan's, and mainhand was always a 1her. I think max damage and the impact of str/dex is going to require much larger sample sizes, unfortunately; I don't think the measured max hits here are the true max hits and I don't see anything conclusive in these results.

Thanks for the data. I would like some more details please. Did you have any ATK buffs on, and are you including double damage hits in your dataset?

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If something is common knowledge, then kindly link to the wiki page or thread you got it from next time. My point was that myself and TytosOfEight provided the source/data that backed up our conclusions.

Have you read the Archery wiki page?

And from the first page of this thread:

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For comparing bows I do the damage + arrow + damage bonus / delay.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Without a better formula I guess (damage + arrow + damage bonus)/delay will have to do.

My first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that both bows have the same damage value is too bad, but it does look like the MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage calculation does predict the modal value pretty well. I'm guessing (MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage) / delay is gonna work about as well as a rule of thumb as (2x damage + MH bonus) / delay does for mainhand melee.

And here's another post from almost two years ago:

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They already do. Bow base damage just isn't multiplied by 2 like it is for normal weapons, it's juts bow dmg + arrow damage, which makes it significantly weaker.

The only thing new in this thread is that there's a weird +1 in there, which is pretty insignificant all things considered.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the data. I would like some more details please. Did you have any ATK buffs on, and are you including double damage hits in your dataset?

Only buff was Greater Wolf Form, plus sometimes Storm Strength as needed. And of course there's no double damage hits, since I have to keep the mob rooted in order to shoot at range.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have you read the Archery wiki page

Thank you for providing sources instead of insults! Make this a habit, and conversations will be smoother. The wiki is often innacurate, but at least we know where you are coming from as a starting point.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Only buff was Greater Wolf Form, plus sometimes Storm Strength as needed. And of course there's no double damage hits, since I have to keep the mob rooted in order to shoot at range.

Thank you. It's good to provide all of the details you can in every test, instead of assuming people know the details. Snaggles had some good, descriptive posts. Here's one example:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=328

[bcbrown]

I realized I forgot to filter out crit hits from the max hits column. Not gonna re-upload the chart, but here's str, dex, max hit.

239  144   74
162  144   67
196  89    71
197  153   71

Seems clear to me that the max hit calculation uses str, not dex. It doesn't look like the formula Goregasmic posted fits, though. My archery skill is 238 and offense is 245, btw.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah DSM said EQEMU has a line using melee damage formula with dex swapped in but he also said they might not use it as is.

Since strength seems to have an impact there's probably a modifier applied to something like weapon+arrow damage

Melee max hit is most likely not the right formula since it is mod x weap damage + dmg bonus.

In this case it would be mod x 23 (huntsman and tolan) +11

So (74--11)/23 = 2.74 mod.

That would mean you'd have to add 35 to 239 before dividing by 100 to get your 2.74 mod. Doesn't make much sense.