Game Mechanics: AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Aadill]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums//...ad.php?t=17686

The link in this thread would've been perfect, so if someone can find a way to wayback this (I couldn't get it to work)

Kavhok, an EQ designer, has finally posted the actual formula for determining base backstab hit. He does so in this thread but the link doesn't work because this is an old post and the internet wants to make my hair fall out so if you want to try to waybackmachine it click on the link above.

In any case, check these two things out:

Originally Posted by Some Dude

- Backstab multiplier. The backstab multiplier is 2 + (skill * .02). A level 70 rogue with +12% backstab skill has a multiplier of 7.26. With an 18 damage piercer, the backstab skill has 130 base damage.

Note that they don't call it minimum damage and instead refer to it as base damage (this is important and I'll mention this further down my post), but further down the page someone makes this exact same reference to minimum damage as we are discussing here:

Originally Posted by Some Dude

As any rogue knows, your minimum hit is a function of your level, nothing else. A level 70 rogue has a minimum hit of 130 with a rusty dagger as well as Soulskive.

At level 70 you do 10 more damage for your minimum backstab. 10 damage. In your smoothed curve I would expect a much higher minimum backstab for level 70.

That 59 to 60 jump doesn't sound so crazy anymore, because EQ really doesn't follow any logic.



NOW: MORE IMPORTANTLY: there is the modifier for backstab that should treat your backstab as a completely different weapon simply based off of your primary dagger. They mention, and this is why it's confusing, 130 BASE damage, which is calculated by using the rogue backstab skill modifier and some other nifty calculations including your weapon damage. The higher damage your primary weapon the more likely you are to hit way above that minimum damage mark. As of right now it makes no difference if you use an SCD or Crystalline Spear to backstab because you always hit for minimum, but it seems like the spread should be further out. Maybe that calculation is off?

[Aadill]

Oh here we go, I found the "it":

http://goberserker.com/forums/archiv...hp?t-1576.html

fatbuk's post, right near the bottom of the page:

There are some obvious exceptions. Like rogues get double backstab at 55 and then have their min backstab jump from like 88 to 125 when they hit 60.

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Currently it looks like this
Level ratio damage Rounded Down
59__ 1.5__ 88.5... 88
60__ 2___ 120... 120

That's pretty close to matching.


Also as noted in an earlier post about the MASSIVE advantage of being level 60:

Similarly at one point a 59 wizard was absolutely useless compared to a 60 wizard with sunstrike, ice spear of solist, and all the good level 60 spells. But for the most part the class defining strenghts and weaknesses scale down nicely.



I think the backstab woes still stem from skill dependency as well as the possibility of AC values. Not only that, but any help in the form of parses given thus far have not been replicated due to a lack of data/cohesion.... also a lack of a test server (it's currently down, according to Uthgaard). I'd recommend going back and getting all the necessary information to be recreated or have a rogue from here get copied to the test server to be used. From there tuning can be adjusted by focusing on the BASE DAMAGE calculations for backstab using the backstab multipliers, level 60, and max STR. I would expect to find something totally different than what Kanras is seeing simply because it's using "real world" equipment and stats, not laboratory-created characters.

[Fleury_P99]

Any word on this being changed Kanras?

[dojo420]

I was about to post the same link as Aadill. What I got from it is that Backstab is just another melee attack with a modified weapon damage value.

Doesn't this mean it should have the same damage distribution as regular attacks? I am at work and don't have a log available to me to compare regular melee with backstab damage distribution.

With a cap on the minimum damage and low damage piercers it now makes kind of sense to have a higher percentage of minimum damage backstabs with a 10 vs a 15 dmg piercer (not sure how to explain: a bigger part of the graph gets set to minimum damage the closer it is to that number). Before I always thought of backstab as an attack with seperate rules from regular melee. So now I am just wondering if they are infact treated the same in regards to atk & ac here on p99.

Nothing on minimum damage 52-59 though.

edit:
another link that might be interesting:
How is backstab calculated?
specifically: http://www.brogett.plus.com/backstab_formula.pdf
While not the exact formula and way after our timeframe maybe someone can get some info from here.

[Aadill]

I went through that post and pdf and decided a lot of it was whining about non rogues getting piercers... dear lord it is horrible. The pdf, however, does have a lot of data. The only problem is he admits he skews the data on both ends "to make it fit." The important thing is the obvious 1-20 rolls, the significant part of this post is here:

1) PC_DAM_BONUS=1, with ATK_ROLL from 1 to 20. This covers the left and central
spikes. The distribution extends from <=290 (clipped) to 538 in this plot.
2) PC_DAM_BONUS=3.55, with ATK_ROLL from 1 to 20. This is the cause of the high spike to the right (ATK_ROLL=20) and the other 19 smaller spikes inbetween the left and right edges.
3) 1 < PC_DAM_BONUS < 3.55. These cause a whole background of hit values. However because ATK_ROLL=20 is more common than the others (as can be seen by the right hand
spike being the highest) we therefore also have 255 values in this background that are higher than the rest


It seems we aren't seeing ATK_ROLL=20 as much, or even 17 18 or 19. The distribution seems skewed towards the low end instead, and not just for backstab either. Should it be possible to hit for 2 at level 57?*


*On mobs with high enough AC I would expect low hits a lot but the DMG bonus isn't even being added or is being mitigated after the fact.

[Arkyani]

Here is some more depressing proof.. Using both a SCD and Crystalline Spear, still insane number of minimum damage even if using a higher damage piercer.

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[Arkyani]

So I cleared my log before crypt group and parsed again.. same result if not worse..

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[Aadill]

Treats you did the math wrong. It should be 2 * max and 4 * Min

Furthermore the Min isn't based on weapon damage, so it really should only take Min * 2 which would be 240 at level 60.

*BACKSEAT MODERATOR* Also we're cluttering up a thread about AC/Level Mitigation for melee backstabs with stuff about disciplines. It's appropriate conversation but not in this thread.

[Supaskillz]

I am pretty sure your attack factors into your max backstab, ragebringer significantly increase your attack so I would not expect these numbers that you are using would be the same as using an efreeti war spear

[azeth]

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am pretty sure your attack factors into your max backstab, ragebringer significantly increase your attack so I would not expect these numbers that you are using would be the same as using an efreeti war spear

good point about seething fury.