Paladin stats & race

[Jimjam]

I think the difference in our positions probably comes down in a difference in perspective on what a wis build paladin would be and what an AC/hp orientated paladin would be.

I interpret a wis build as sacrificing large amounts of defence for wisdom (as per the profile you liked with the jewelled mask instead of a targishin mask for similar money / trivial camp). Likewise when I say hp/AC orientated builds I mean one that takes defence and ignores other stats. I'm not really talking about 1400 AC builds, that is way beyond the point of diminished returns for most content, I agree.

But in like for like gear comparisons most of the way up, I don't think so.

[DMN]

I thought soothe capped at 40 or 45?

[Danth]

The level caps usually associated with the lull spell line were mostly added later on when those types of spells were revamped during the post-classic era.

Danth

[Boarder981]

Wow, my original post sparked quite a debate! Lots of good info and an interesting read, to say the least [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s been so long since I played any class with Lull, so can someone please explain the mechanics re: resists, crit failures, etc

Also, at what point does Charisma have such a big impact that it’ll almost always succeed? 150 CHA? 200 CHA?

On a related note, how much DEX is needed to actually have a decent proc rate? I’ve heard the gains per point are small, but I don’t know how valid that claim is. I would consider dumping some into DEX if it makes a big difference, but if it’s something I need to boost to 150-200 in order to see noticeable gains, I may as well leave it and get DEX gear later if I feel the need (after all, I most likely won’t be using a proc weapon ALL the time).

Honestly I’m willing to bypass starting points in STA for either CHA or DEX. 15 SAT equates to what, 80 HP at level 60? Not a huge gain IMO, especially since it’s likely easier to hit 200 STA than CHA or DEX.

And then there’s the choice of Tunare for Natures Defender... ugh, too many things to consider! I’m probably making this way more difficult than it should be lol.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Boarder981 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m probably making this way more difficult than it should be lol.

You absolutely are. For all the discussion, Paladin starting race and statistics very much fall into the category of, "splitting hairs." No matter what you do it isn't going to dramatically affect your life in-game. That being said, making the plans and working out this or that can be fun in and of itself, so have at it. No harm in being over-prepared.

Danth

[Pint]

Pick dwarf 5 in agi rest in Wis, didn't need all this discussion to know what the optimal path was

[Boarder981]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You absolutely are. For all the discussion, Paladin starting race and statistics very much fall into the category of, "splitting hairs."

You’re absolutely right. It’s just what I always do when it comes to things like this. Too much analysis.

I was wondering if anyone has insight into the other questions in my last post.

1. How exactly do Lull mechanics work? It’s been so long that I don’t remember the details
2. How much CHA is necessary for Lull to almost always work?
3. How much does DEX actually affect proc rate, and at what point do you actually notice a difference?

Of course, I can create separate posts with these questions, but figured I’d ask here first.

[Troxx]

As usual Jimjam hits the nail on the head. Repeatedly.

My paladin needs more wisdom/mana, but I rarely find myself full mana with the limited pool I have. This is especially true after hitting 59 and getting the celestial cleansing spell. That heal is just too efficient and nice (1.5 sec cast) to not use routinely on both self and group mates. If I could choose between having 100ac or 60 more wisdom, however, I’d opt for the ac. Thankfully such trade offs don’t really exist on p99 without making some extreme choices (that also involves very high end raid gear).

For now my pathetic 1500 mana at level 60 gets the job done well. Threat is CHEAP for us to generate. Big mana expenditures for me are the heals I toss around, buffs I refresh, and stuns I strategically use. In a fast paced group I like to hover between 70-80% mana. It leaves enough reserve to heal/root/stun/calm liberally if the situation calls for it and enough mana deficit to capitalize on those moments I have to opportunity to sit on my ass for a pinch to get mana back. If I get to full mana, I preemptively refresh a round of Divine Str buffs +/- ghetto symbols and ac as needed.

Same concept with the shaman ... I try never to be full mana unless I’ve already refreshed every buff that isn’t already fresh.

Caveat: Warrior is what I take to primary raids. Paladin is for group fun or trashy clear raids without massive hitting raid targets at the end of them. If my paladin were raid exclusive I’d put more emphasis on wisdom. Those heals come in handy.

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As usual Jimjam hits the nail on the head. Repeatedly.

My paladin needs more wisdom/mana, but I rarely find myself full mana with the limited pool I have. This is especially true after hitting 59 and getting the celestial cleansing spell. That heal is just too efficient and nice (1.5 sec cast) to not use routinely on both self and group mates. If I could choose between having 100ac or 60 more wisdom, however, I’d opt for the ac. Thankfully such trade offs don’t really exist on p99 without making some extreme choices (that also involves very high end raid gear).

For now my pathetic 1500 mana at level 60 gets the job done well. Threat is CHEAP for us to generate. Big mana expenditures for me are the heals I toss around, buffs I refresh, and stuns I strategically use. In a fast paced group I like to hover between 70-80% mana. It leaves enough reserve to heal/root/stun/calm liberally if the situation calls for it and enough mana deficit to capitalize on those moments I have to opportunity to sit on my ass for a pinch to get mana back. If I get to full mana, I preemptively refresh a round of Divine Str buffs +/- ghetto symbols and ac as needed.

Same concept with the shaman ... I try never to be full mana unless I’ve already refreshed every buff that isn’t already fresh.

Caveat: Warrior is what I take to primary raids. Paladin is for group fun or trashy clear raids without massive hitting raid targets at the end of them. If my paladin were raid exclusive I’d put more emphasis on wisdom. Those heals come in handy.

If you have a level 60 Paladin with 1500 mana you're handicapping yourself for "burst" heal potential, and I would go to say your stance on this subject is probably based inherently in the fact you know you have, OR you're using a Paladin simply as a sub-par warrior with easy agro mechanic, which there is nothing wrong with that.

A 1500 mana Paladin would be abysmal to play at 60 vrs a 3000-3500 mana pool Paladin, sorry - but nothing you can say can explain this away. You're burning 15% of you mana pool to cast a single HoT, where as a 3500 mana paladin is blowing 6.4%, how is that good thing lol?

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I said soothe, not pacify. Soothe works on mobs up to 55 and costs only 30 mana. Soothe + atone is a solid synergy, though I appreciate a little team work is required.

I talk about mana regen, not because I suggest wearing it for any one particular build (obviously all builds should if they can), but because mana regen is the limiting factor on how many spells you can cast across an extended period of time.

Given the same mana regen both Paladins will be casting the same number of spells. The exception is the wisdom paladin gets a one time boost of whatever their difference in mana pool is (and only if he gets really low on mana). He won't get that benefit again unless the low wis build paladin ends up sitting around at full mana, which if he does I'd ascribe to being a player mistake, not a build error.

Always thought Soothe capped at 40? if not - well there you go learned me something new, or that needs to get fixed on the server.

If both Paladin's are starting off as OOM and have to consecutively cast spells as they regen mana, than yes that's true. Where it deviates is if you're starting point is 2000 mana, or 3500 mana, then effectively a mana build Paladin has 1500 more mana each time they med up to expend.

2000mana /225 mana cost of HoT = 8.8 casts <-- Sacrifices the extra heals for maybe a little extra mitigation that doesn't really matter for the tier level of mobs most Paladins tank.
3500mana /225 mana cost of HoT = 15.5 casts <--Far more effective on raids as they can take on a roll of patch healing/far more effective in groups when needed to heal.

So no, you're wrong that they have the same basis of healing potential due to Mana regen alone, that only stands true if they are starting at OOM.


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I think ultimately the dance is danced on this subject and those that get it, get it, and those that don't, don't. "Splitting hairs" on starting stats is def. a good comment that was made.

I think the only TERRIBLE race choice you can make as a Paladin is Half-Elfs because that 60 something starting wisdom would be painful to over come.

Regardless of whats been discussed, a dex build vrs a mana build vrs a ac Paladin build will pretty much tank normal groups without much difference if all the tank is required to do is keep agro and be healed.

The split of difference seems to be:
(1) Excessively going for Mana (more healing/stunning)
or
(2) AC/HP (slightly more mitigation)

There's merit for both sides, but I personally think and have experienced that having a low mana pool on your Paladin is not optimal in this era of Velious.

But it's good to see the discussion take place.

[Troxx]

Incoming small novel.

Originally Posted by White_knight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have a level 60 Paladin with 1500 mana you're handicapping yourself for "burst" heal potential, and I would go to say your stance on this subject is probably based inherently in the fact you know you have, OR you're using a Paladin simply as a sub-par warrior with easy agro mechanic, which there is nothing wrong with that.

I have a 60 paladin which was my most recently created toon. It’s not my primary raid toon. He’s a fun alt, and no he is neither geared to be a warrior nor played as such. He’s a half elf and started off with a 35 wisdom disadvantage compared to high elf.

I made him half elf for 2 reason:

1) Tunare Diety for Natures Defender Quest. It looks cool as hell, was super easy to quest (he’s an alt - wasn’t going to do epic), has 45 ac (stupid strong) along with a comparable to epic stat spread and proc. If this wasn’t in game I’d have rolled dwarf.
2) FashionQuest. I hate the way high elf males in plate look. I gave up 35 wisdom for a tradeoff of +15 str +5stam/agility, +15 dex. The stat trade offs are debatable (I would have preferred the wisdom) but most importantly I don’t have run around looking like a half elf male in plate. Looking the way you want is the single most important stat. 10 of my starting stats were wisdom.

His magelo: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromir

If he were a high elf geared as he currently is he’d have 1975 mana from the 35 extra wisdom. I’ve already got my bp gems (need to give the stolen fungi back to my monk), the finances to buy the cloak, and nearly enough saves up for Narandi Crown. I need to tap into my inner “not lazy” to go get my 7/6 talisman. Imminent upgrades put me at this:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromirnext

If I were a high elf paladin I’d be at 2400 mana with these non-raid upgrades on the horizon. Othmir prexus totem next goal? 2600 mana.

Really my mana boils down to refusing to be a high elf and being unwilling to wear gear like a zero ac 7 wis/str mask as a tank class.

This whole discussion kicked off after you posted this magelo and asked what the first thing we noticed was:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin

The first thing I noticed was your bad ac despite clearly having some pretty decent overall gear quality. Clicking through your gear choices quickly explained it. You’re wearing a few dumb pieces that are dragging you down.

A 1500 mana Paladin would be abysmal to play at 60 vrs a 3000-3500 mana pool Paladin, sorry - but nothing you can say can explain this away. You're burning 15% of you mana pool to cast a single HoT, where as a 3500 mana paladin is blowing 6.4%, how is that good thing lol?

Heal over time has a 30 second cool down. You can’t exactly chain cast it even if you want to. Wave of Healing is actually weaker than wiki places it. It’s much less efficient than heal over time and only has situational use, the most important of which I’d argue is threat snap while topping off some group health. 220 heal isn’t going to save anyone. That leaves us with superior heal which is generally on my bar for emergencies where someone needs a faster blast heal. If I’m grouping with a healer worth their salt and not on a raid I don’t keep it mem’d. It’s got a slow cast time and if the ench is going down it usually won’t land in time - that’s what LoH is for. It’s also more expensive to cast and heals for a lot less total than our heal over time. That heal over time should be the only heal any 59+ knight uses outside of extraordinary circumstances. For those circumstances I keep other heals loaded but they have significant drawbacks in terms of insufficiency, inefficiency, and for one of them in being slow to cast.

So what does that leave us with?

-an amazing heal over time that is fast to cast and efficient with a 30 sec lockout
-the need to hold threat which is easy and cheap with a 12 mana spell
-the ability to stun as desired or needed (I keep 2 up always)
-the ability to root as needed
-lulls (not expensive)
-buffs to cast/refresh as needed
-rez to do rarely as needed
-a targeted rune which does actually have some uses. If puller is bringing in a few - tag me with rune and mobs will run to you instead

Having more total mana let’s you cast none of these more often over time unless you or your group has enough down time that one paladin can Med longer while the other would be sitting around full mana and not climb any further. My experience is that this scenario is the exception, not the norm. I usually roll with fast paced groups. The bigger pool just gives you more total reserve with which to operate. In a raid environment on big targets with aoe damage, that deeper pool is critically important.

If you play your paladin like a holy healing Gandalf with chain casting wave of healing and throwing around superior heals like they’re going out of style you’re just simply going to find yourself out of mana. If you’re using that extra mana on extra unnecessary aggro ... you’re going to just run out sooner and either force your group to stop to wait on you to Med or find yourself so low on mana you can’t do anything but flash of light. When that happens you’re NO better than a warrior with less mitigation, fewer hitpoints, and less dps.

My opinion is that knighting properly is balancing your mana usage while effectively using the tools at your disposal and keeping enough always on reserve in the tank to deal with the unexpected when it happens. So far I’ve gotten really good with working that balance with 1500 mana. I’m about to have 2k - or 2 extra HoTs in my hip pocket.

Mana is good. Wisdom is good. Our spellbook is what distinguishes us. At the end of the day, however, we’re still tanks. Tanks with low ac are mana sponges and tanks with low hp are less efficient to heal.