Miscellaneous: P99 should have a +Mana cap and revised Base Mana Formula

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Bellringer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Confused of why the 4164 number is being overlooked. It appears your assumptions of classic mana per wis/int above and/or below 200 are flawed.

Luclin Day Patch

Increased the amount of mana given by high Intelligence and Wisdom scores, as well as that granted by items and spells.

This is why. That 4164 mana value, which is the most accurately described number so far, is pulled from a post during late Luclin.

Meaning it occurred 8 months after the above patch which changed the calculation of 200-255 WIS/INT to Mana. The classic value seems to have been 1 Mana per 1 WIS/INT. The Luclin one 6 sticks in my mind but 5 fits the numbers more easily. This means the level 60 calculation is:

Classic = 12 Mana per WIS 0-200, 1 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2455
Max +Mana = 1228
Total Max Worn Mana = 3683.

Luclin = 12.5 Mana per WIS 0-200, 5 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2775
Max +Mana = 1388
Total Max Worn Mana = 4163 (4164... rounding error probably)

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Konfetti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is there any evidence to what the cap was? Didn't the introduction of AAs also alter people's mana pool? Was that taken into account with the devs comments?

The numbers I've seen seem to just be "these numbers would have made sense" instead of "this for sure was the case".

No innate AAs introduced in Luclin modify your stat cap, or the Mana pool.

Being sure about a hidden value you cannot see until GoD launches is sort of tough. The experiments and ShowEQ data mined from the era is the best we've got. It just needs to be reverse engineered backwards from that value to the value pre-Luclin when the post 201 WIS/INT calculation was changed.

Interesting again, I was looking through some old posts from Al'Kabor, there was a known 500 mana cap provided from spells. Which meant a wizard with the AA Familiar (300) and Voice of Quellious (275), only actually gained an additional 500 mana instead of 575. It seems they put many hidden caps on statistics that many classes couldn't even reach until after these caps were removed.

[Jaxon]

Another interesting point of agreement is in the formula that EQemu uses to calculate your base mana pool. That formula is at https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...47#post1580147

if((( Wis - 199 ) / 2) > 0)
	MindLesserFactor = ( Wis - 199 ) / 2;
else
	MindLesserFactor = 0;

MindFactor = Wis - MindLesserFactor;

if(Wis > 100)
	max_m = (((5 * (MindFactor + 20)) / 2) * 3 * GetLevel() / 40);
else
	max_m = (((5 * (MindFactor + 200)) / 2) * 3 * GetLevel() / 100);

These numbers are integers, so you truncate the decimals after each division operation.

If you want to calculate the base mana pool of a level 60 character with 255 WIS, it works out like this:

MindLesserFactor = (255 - 199) / 2 = 28
MindFactor       = 255 - 28 = 227
max_m            = 5 * (227 + 20) / 2 = 617 (617.5 truncated)
                   617  * 3 =  1851
                   1851 * 60 = 111060
                   111060 / 40 = 2776 (2776.5 truncated)

If you take 4164, which is the maximum mana seen in ShowEQ, and subtract 1388 from that, you end up with 2776 mana. The fact that these two numbers agree exactly lends support to the idea that the base mana formula in the emulator is the same base mana formula that was used during Luclin.

[Rygar]

Damn Jaxon, amazing find and corroboration! Is there a showEQ crawl from velious era that would validate Daldaen's math?

If not, what was the max mana shown in those crawls? Could reverse engineer a formula from that.

Here was his values:

Max WIS based Mana = 2455
Max +Mana = 1228
Total Max Worn Mana = 3683

[Rygar]

For what it is worth I saw this post about a slightly alternate formula for mana that was posted 3 months before Luclin, could run it by the ShowEQ results from Velious to see if the cap would match:

Mana Calculator:

To nit pick a little, the formula is really

((WIS/5)+2) x Level = base mana + mana from items = total mana

where wis is less than 200, and

42 * level + (wis-200) = base mana + mana from items = total mana

((Same, using INT for int casters))

Want to see something funny, loot your corpse at low levels with a lot of +mana gear on. Suddenly your mana bar drops to half without ever casting a spell!

Not sure where that +2 came from, but could see if the ShowEQ results match up. For 255 wis/int @ Lvl 60:

(((200/5)+2) * 60) + (255-200) = 2,575 base mana
2,575 / 2 = 1,287 (rounded down) +mana item cap
Max mana = 3,862 mana (not including buffs).

That is roughly 200 more mana from Daldaen's calculations. Again no clue on the authenticity.

Interesting to read the last comment about going to 50% mana from looting a bunch of +mana items at low levels, one would expect 66%... Would assume they also looted +wis/int gear too, but perhaps the mana cap scaled differently as you leveled? We may never know.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Jaxon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you take 4164, which is the maximum mana seen in ShowEQ

Quick question... i know not how ShowEQ works, but reflecting on this, why wouldn't the number be higher in the data to account for buffs? Were buffs not seen by ShowEQ?

If they were, then that would stand to reason that the mana cap didn't just apply to items, but to items and buffs... Ouch.

Edit: i saw in the FoH thread that they found an unbuffed 4164, maybe that is what you were referring to.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by teija [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now that I think about this subject more I now see why the dev team had reason to buff our current raid content (mob hp/dmg ect) beyond live to account for inflated mana pools and other issues. Would make sense, need a response from dev.

I wonder if they could just adjust the mana cost of spells instead, would make more sense so it applies to group / solo content. Could have some issues of scale though, and not sure if there are client issues.

I am starting to develop a tinfoil hat idea that devs may have been aware of this!

[Daldaen]

Other than Sleepers Tomb Warders and VP Dragon AEs, which were bug reported here and here, what other mobs are harder on P99 than they should be?

I agree that NToV Flurry spots aren't classic, but I don't think any NToV, Kael or other Velious bosses have incorrect DI/DBs or HP values at this point. I'm aware Vyemm originally had some unclassic stats but that has since been revamped.

[Raev]

[QUOTE=Daldaen;2612011]what other mobs are harder on P99 than they should be?

I would say just about everything, because their ATK values are tuned vs the softcap rather than a 289 AC hardcap. With true classic mechanics, all of that NTOV gear should be nearly worthless for warriors (~10% HP) rather than the +400 AC or whatever it grants now.

What we really need is about 10 A/A guys to start developing some custom content!

[Daldaen]

Great classic quest going on in this thread.