RIP Chester Bennington

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Who says suicide has to be caused by an illness? It can be a perfectly logical and ethical choice and, I'd argue, a basic human right. The fact that you equate suicidal with crazy speaks to the perversion of humanist values in our society by religious ones.

I mean, when suicidal ideation or any other non-normative thinking would be cause for a diagnosis of 'mental illness', of course suicide is almost always going to be associated with mental illness. But when you look at it closely it's far more of a value judgment than it is clinical pathology. It's deviant behavior more than disease. And that's suicide I'm talking about, not clinical depression, although they are related.

You are totally right: there are 100% rational reasons to kill yourself, like "someone has your child and will murder them if you don't", or "you have a painful terminal illness with no cure". But the vast majority of suicides either come from a physical failure in the body, or extreme environmental conditions (eg. being raped) .. or both.

[Jimjam]

The story checks out by your avatar. Left eye surrounded by blue tears, right eye dry as a nun.

Another thing to consider with suicide 'victims' is that they often have low self esteem and a world view in which their life is unimportant to anyone. They may believe their close ones will be better off without them.

In their mind their death could be an altruistic martyrdom, not a selfish act.

Anyway, RIP Chester, my thoughts with his children and so on, and more broadly with all those having to deal with these issues or the fallout from them.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by http://www.npr.org/programs/death/980429.death.html

ARANGA: What we really think that is happening in suicide is that the person is unable to inhibit the desire to go ahead and kill himself or herself.

TRUDEAU: After a decade of work studying over 175 brains, the research group in New York has found that the serotonin braking system is defective in many suicide victims. Their brains are anatomically different than the brains of people who have died of natural causes. Specifically, Aranga has discovered a malfunction in the area of the brain right above the eyes called the pre-frontal cortex, the place where executive decisions are made dictating what feelings we will act upon and what feelings we will inhibit.

...

TRUDEAU: Another team member, neuroscientist Mark Underwood (ph), is looking at a different part of the brains of suicide victims, at the back, an area called the brain stem. Enlisting the power of the computer, Underwood counts the number of serotonin nerve cells. There too, the serotonin system looks faulty.

MARK UNDERWOOD, NEUROSCIENTIST, NEW YORK STATE PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTE: We have found hat there are approximately 30 percent more of these serotonin neurons in the suicide victims than in the controls. To find more neurons would suggest something very fundamental, such that you may in fact be born with your biological risk for suicide behavior.

Science!

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The story checks out by your avatar. Left eye surrounded by blue tears, right eye dry as a nun.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Lune]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"you have a painful terminal illness with no cure"

Like untreated major depression?

Remember, for many of these people, treatment isn't realistic. Most can't afford it, half of it doesn't work, and countless more face an unimaginable social stigma, including the prospect of losing their job (military, public safety).

It sounds to me like the proper course of action is to advocate for better treatment and social understanding, rather than try to rob these people of what may very well be their only way out of suffering.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by http://www.npr.org/programs/death/980429.death.html
ARANGA: What we really think that is happening in suicide is that the person is unable to inhibit the desire to go ahead and kill himself or herself.

TRUDEAU: After a decade of work studying over 175 brains, the research group in New York has found that the serotonin braking system is defective in many suicide victims. Their brains are anatomically different than the brains of people who have died of natural causes. Specifically, Aranga has discovered a malfunction in the area of the brain right above the eyes called the pre-frontal cortex, the place where executive decisions are made dictating what feelings we will act upon and what feelings we will inhibit.

...

TRUDEAU: Another team member, neuroscientist Mark Underwood (ph), is looking at a different part of the brains of suicide victims, at the back, an area called the brain stem. Enlisting the power of the computer, Underwood counts the number of serotonin nerve cells. There too, the serotonin system looks faulty.

MARK UNDERWOOD, NEUROSCIENTIST, NEW YORK STATE PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTE: We have found hat there are approximately 30 percent more of these serotonin neurons in the suicide victims than in the controls. To find more neurons would suggest something very fundamental, such that you may in fact be born with your biological risk for suicide behavior.

It's socially irresponsible of them as clinicians to attribute a difference in the structure and function of serotonergic neurons to "faultiness", when it could very well be that these people have a clearer conception of the abstract reality of their situation, which is the entire point of the prefrontal cortex in the first place-- abstract, executive cognitions without interference from primordial fight or flight or survival impulses.

Oh wait, they aren't clinicians, they are neuroscientists.

That's not to mention we have NO IDEA how the serotonergic system works at a detailed level and it's totally irresponsible to make the kind of claim they're insinuating.

[Ahldagor]

Danke Lune and Cecily.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh wait, they aren't clinicians, they are neuroscientists.

That's not to mention we have NO IDEA how the serotonergic system works at a detailed level and it's totally irresponsible to make the kind of claim they're insinuating.

Is there something wrong with people who studied biology in college for four years, then studied neurobiology in particular for 3+ years, then made a career out of studying nerobiology? And what exactly is your comprehensive neurobiology background that allows you to so easily refute their work, despite (presumably) never having read any of their published papers?

[Mead]

I'm sure Chester Bennington learned many coping mechanisms in his time as a musician, drug user, and alcoholic to combat his depression and past abuse. We are most certain he was of sound mind when he made the decision to kill himself.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is there something wrong with people who studied biology in college for four years, then studied neurobiology in particular for 3+ years, then made a career out of studying nerobiology? And what exactly is your comprehensive neurobiology background that allows you to so easily refute their work, despite (presumably) never having read any of their published papers?

I'm not refuting their work. Their publication is in finding altered serotinin levels in cases of death by suicide, which I find interesting. What I do take issue with is their manner of speculation in the NPR interview about the altered serotinin levels being "faulty" (read: pathological) rather than different, and their overreaching characterization of the role of serotinin in human physiology.

As neuroscientists they are qualified to examine the differences in serotinin in the different tissues and make physiological postulations regarding that. What they are not qualified to do is create a clinical paradigm for the serotonergic system that still lacks understanding even among scientists who study it specifically from an internal medicine and endocrinology perspective.

There could be any number of causes for the different serotinin levels and their publication elucidates exactly none of them. It could very well be that the emotional trauma leading up to suicide causes an accumulation of serotonin, rather than it being a chronic presentation throughout the disease-course in a suicidal individual. I'm just very wary of assigning cause in publications like these especially when the authors don't do it explicitly themselves in the publication.

[Ahldagor]

Questioning credentials is ad homine laramin. You bought the placebo of mental health treatment, glad it worked for you, but you're massively generalizing in your notions of the effectiveness of treatments from your personal experience. You should read "The Fountain of Quiet" by Keith Waldrop.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Ahldagor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Questioning credentials is ad homine laramin. You bought the placebo of mental health treatment, glad it worked for you, but you're massively generalizing in your notions of the effectiveness of treatments from your personal experience. You should read "The Fountain of Quiet" by Keith Waldrop.

Yeah I did high school speech and debate too [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But look, neurobiology is not something you can understand from taking a high school class. I don't feel any more qualified to make claims about it than I do about architecture, programming automated cars, or quantum mechanics. So when you're discussing topics which require expert knowledge, you present the opinions of experts.

But when I did exactly that, the refutation was basically "nah, I know better". Now if the person making that refutation has a strong background in the field themselves then that's relevant. Otherwise it's just a layperson who doesn't have anywhere near the understanding of an expert discounting an expert's opinion without basis.