Open Letter to Nilbog & Co: Raid Item Nerfs

[derpcake]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm about... 78.54% sure this is a classic mechanic. Not something they recently changed on Live. Which would surely make the current meta of P99 change up a bit when you can no longer mallet dragons out of trains.

iirc this was changed on live because it was possible to build so much agro on a mob from outside its melee range that other characters could melee / cast on the mob unharmed, this was an issue with rooted mobs mainly

quite sure about it

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by derpcake [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

iirc this was changed on live because it was possible to build so much agro on a mob from outside its melee range that other characters could melee / cast on the mob unharmed, this was an issue with rooted mobs mainly

quite sure about it

Nah belly casters have been in since at least Kunark. Giants and dragons are usually bellycasters - Heres a post from 2001 regarding Solusek B:

They also have the ability to summon their target to their feet if their target isn't in melee range. This leads to the amusing "You will not evade me, Jekhar!" lines that are broadcast throughout the zone. In order to cast spells on them, casters need to be in melee range or the spell will always be resisted.

http://www.angelfire.com/or2/relentless/firegiant.html

Another from a different forum, 2001:

The normal fire giant warriors hit for 137 max. Same with fire giant wizards. The wizards are really easy since they waste time casting weak nukes and only start hitting you near death when they are low on mana. Make sure your cleric knows that spells have to be cast from within melee range to have an effect on the giants.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ng-King-Tranix

From 2000

Further yet lies the Fire Giants in their temple. The strategy for clearing out the Fire Giants is long and detailed, and requires a highly skilled team of high level players to take on. None of these creatures can be mesmerized at all or charmed except by very high level enchanters, and they will resist all spells if the spellcaster is out of melee range.

https://msu.edu/~oconne53/eqatlas/nagafenslair.html

Regarding Faydedar, 2000

Magic Resistance helps you keep from being feared, but it will not help you with dispells/debuffs. That is why most guides recommend that you fill your first 6 slots with junk buffs first like See Invis, Endure Disease, etc.
Also, you do need to be in melee range of Fay for your spells to land.

http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-13210.html

[Daldaen]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

Earlier you mention the lazy agro / non-melee range casting would stop pulling dragons out of trains. Wouldn't raiders just resort to casting "Cancel Magic" line of spells to generate the agro to snap out of a train? If I understand you right, this would still generate agro outside of melee range since it is unresistable (I think it was mentioned this line of spells is unresistable, but I'm not exactly sure).

[Daldaen]

Tashan or Malo would work because unresistable.

Cancel magic generates very very little aggro. I don't know if it is actually enough to trump body aggro on mobs.

But the thing is most ways people tag out of trains are done with monks or rogues using instant click slow/root/charm items. Which I don't believe is a classic option... if the mob is a belly caster. Which is basically just limited to like... Kunark/ToV Dragons mostly.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

That would make sense working like that. Otherwise you could like you said generate insane aggro with non damaging spells before engaging. Would still probably pull dragons out of trains though since you did interact with it, like cancel magic or taunt - if dragon was pulled by proximity and not similiar spell / arrow etc.

[lurk]

I think thats a very interesting topic that you will never find proof for. Theres no doubt that guilds in luclin prebuilt agro on rooted mobs...ToV wasnt even rooted until luclin? and they were given call of the zero.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tashan or Malo would work because unresistable.

Cancel magic generates very very little aggro. I don't know if it is actually enough to trump body aggro on mobs.

But the thing is most ways people tag out of trains are done with monks or rogues using instant click slow/root/charm items. Which I don't believe is a classic option... if the mob is a belly caster. Which is basically just limited to like... Kunark/ToV Dragons mostly.

The summoned Mage staff has 1 insta click charge of Cancel Magic, think it has a nice range on it too (200? 225?). I have tagged royals out of trains with this staff in Chardok.

[Daldaen]

Hmm that's true. Maybe I'm mixing up my aggro tables. Playing on three servers with different aggro code gets me confused sometimes.

Yea I would guess mage cancel sticks to tag would become the new meta. But warrior would need to wait until mobs get in melee range before using a Mallet for example to pull off the tagger.

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by lurk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think thats a very interesting topic that you will never find proof for. Theres no doubt that guilds in luclin prebuilt agro on rooted mobs...ToV wasnt even rooted until luclin? and they were given call of the zero.

I don't like to use my memory cus it sucks but doing Srra I'm sure tank would use clickies before running in. Remember the pissed off Rhaags standing there eyeballing MA [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]