Curious why is paladin's the least played class?

[Atmas]

Originally Posted by yorumi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You and a lot of others keep bringing up the min/max point but it really doesn't apply here. We're not looking at mostly insignificant difference in output here. You would be shocked at just how much dps a warrior is outputting while tanking, and going the berserk route is downright terrifying. Warrior is doing this all while also having better mitigation. If that wasn't bad enough they also get both offensive and defensive disciplines that paladin has absolutely no answer to.

When you watch the two classes performing side by side you quickly realize just how poor a performance the paladin shows. It's not a matter of extreme min/maxing paladin really is that much worse.

Yes a Paladin is well out shined by warrior in those regards. Probably nobody knows that better than I do. However, that's kind of expected, if it was insignificantly close why would anyone even play a warrior? An all regards equal tank/dpser who could buff and heal would be way superior. As it is there are some encounters like doing Ring Wars and PoTG clears where if I'm tanking a mob I can keep myself up longer if no heal is incoming.

So let me flip your statement to illustrate my point. How does the warrior stack up in healing vs the paladin? When people in his group are getting aoed down? Or the current tank needs patching?

[yorumi]

Originally Posted by Atmas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So let me flip your statement to illustrate my point. How does the warrior stack up in healing vs the paladin? When people in his group are getting aoed down? Or the current tank needs patching?

The problem is those scenarios become vanishingly small and often revolve around a poorly performing group. Often times a better party composition would perform better. So it becomes more a case of making due than actually being useful. If a paladin is outputting significant healing it means his already low dps is even lower. It means overall mobs are dying much slower and perhaps that's contributing to the problem?

Similar in a raid, if a paladin is outputting significant healing you're honestly probably better off with just another healer. healers have decent nukes and landing one would probably do more dps than the entire output of the paladin.

Again it's not that a warrior is a slightly better tank and dps, a warrior is a significantly better tank, and a significantly better dps on top of that. And a paladin is about as bad of a healer as it is a tank. Sure a paladin is a better healer than a warrior but how often are you really in a situation where it's better to have a paladin healing than a tank taking significantly less damage and killing mobs much faster?

[Danth]

Originally Posted by yorumi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warrior is doing this all while also having better mitigation..

Eh? There's no significant difference in the damage reduction between a Warrior and a Paladin unless the Warrior's using defensive or evasive discipline, which in normal groups typically doesn't happen much or at all. Any slight avoidance advantage the Warrior might have is canceled out by the Warrior taking a lot more riposte damage due to dual wielding fast weapons instead of a Paladin's typically slower single weapon. If the Warrior is taking less heals it's because the monster's beating up on somebody else. The Paladin offers the ability to chain stun which provides a sort of mitigation on demand of its own, and while not equal to /defensive, that capability shouldn't be ignored. With three stun spells and a full mana bar, a Paladin can chain-stun a target and almost completely lock it down for quite awhile, if he so chooses.

The Warrior deals more damage than the Paladin by himself, but the Paladin allows the rest of his group to deal damage quicker without the target getting loose. Warriors are the clear loser in this comparison: If you want a high-damage, low-aggro tank for your pick-up group, you might as well invite an extra Monk. Paladins make the healers lives easier by keeping damage (mostly) confined to one target, and having the extra stuns handy also helps keep the Enchanter alive when charm inevitably breaks. Paladins don't just help a bad group function tolerably, but they also help ensure a good group stays good instead of falling apart when something goes wrong.

I maintain my opinion that the Paladin's unpopular not because of any problem performing its role, but rather because its role is a role which most folks don't care too much about. That being said, not too many folks will change their minds: Those folks who know what Paladins can do don't need changing, and those who've written the class off aren't typically interested in reading anything which conflicts with their preconceived notions.

As an aside, most Paladin players loathe being relegated to tertiary healer status in raids, so I wouldn't hold that up as an advantage. The class can do it, and sometimes even do it well, but a) it's not why folks pick the Paladin at creation, and b) aside from Divine Strength, a raid would usually rather just have another cleric. Hybrids aren't big high-end raiding classes, I hope we can all agree on that much.

Danth

[yorumi]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh? There's no significant difference in the damage reduction between a Warrior and a Paladin unless the Warrior's using defensive or evasive discipline, which in normal groups typically doesn't happen much or at all. Any slight avoidance advantage the Warrior might have is canceled out by the Warrior taking a lot more riposte damage due to dual wielding fast weapons instead of a Paladin's typically slower single weapon. If the Warrior is taking less heals it's because the monster's beating up on somebody else. The Paladin offers the ability to chain stun which provides a sort of mitigation on demand of its own, and while not equal to /defensive, that capability shouldn't be ignored. With three stun spells and a full mana bar, a Paladin can chain-stun a target and almost completely lock it down for quite awhile, if he so chooses.

My experience from playing both is that the warrior takes less damage. Soloing the same mobs at similar gear levels the paladin ends at a far lower hp level. Some of that I'm sure is due to the difference in damage output but just watching logs you can see the warrior is overall taking less damage.

In terms of agro, while I'll agree at very low levels, or if a warrior isn't focusing on dex(doing it wrong), then the paladin has an advantage. However, I would say root is a very common spell and solves virtually all of the warrior's agro problems. In terms of the monk being a better pick, well that goes against the paladin just as much as the warrior, so largely a moot point. And as for stuns, lets not forget most of the higher end stuff in velious can't be stunned.

I like paladin honestly, I play one and enjoy it. it's just when you go an play a warrior you really quickly realize just how lacking the paladin actually is. And giving our extensive knowledge base it's not surprising a lot of people quickly figure out that unless you like the RP aspects of paladin you're better off picking pretty much anything else. Even an SK performs better as a group tank than a paladin.

[Nixtar]

Originally Posted by yorumi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And a ranger is about as bad of a healer as it is a tank.

Fixed that for you.

[Atmas]

Originally Posted by yorumi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is those scenarios become vanishingly small and often revolve around a poorly performing group. Often times a better party composition would perform better. So it becomes more a case of making due than actually being useful. If a paladin is outputting significant healing it means his already low dps is even lower. It means overall mobs are dying much slower and perhaps that's contributing to the problem?

Similar in a raid, if a paladin is outputting significant healing you're honestly probably better off with just another healer. healers have decent nukes and landing one would probably do more dps than the entire output of the paladin.

Again it's not that a warrior is a slightly better tank and dps, a warrior is a significantly better tank, and a significantly better dps on top of that. And a paladin is about as bad of a healer as it is a tank. Sure a paladin is a better healer than a warrior but how often are you really in a situation where it's better to have a paladin healing than a tank taking significantly less damage and killing mobs much faster?

Actually I find these to be quite common scenarios, and this is my perspective from being in a top raiding guild Rampage -> Awakened for the entirety of Velious.

As I mentioned in another post clerics are usually just healing the MT and shamans aren't always plentiful or are busy slowing in the beginning. Palies actually have some pretty mana efficient fast cast heals in their group and HoT spells. Also, shamans can't torpor people out of group, and torpor diminishes damage output. If you are doing it right you can heal with very little detriment to your own damage (which admittedly is still not great). Paly honestly can heal about as well Druid.

Also non-wizard nukes don't land that great in a lot of cases. Further, in Velious the fights are long and melee weapons get pretty good, I don't really see non-wizard nukers out dpsing Paly. If it turns out less healing is needed other healers really won't transition to doing damage as well or do it as seamlessly.

If you have a bunch of toons laying around and non-changing conditions sure why not use them. In the end I have done a ton of end game on this server and never not had something I couldn't contribute on my Paladin.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by yorumi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My experience from playing both is that the warrior takes less damage. Soloing the same mobs at similar gear levels the paladin ends at a far lower hp level. Some of that I'm sure is due to the difference in damage output but just watching logs you can see the warrior is overall taking less damage.

Could be additional factors at play, like regen, or whatnot. Maybe the damage matters that much. The wife's experience healing both in groups is that there's no appreciable difference unless the warr's in /defensive, and likewise that's what other healer types tell me when I'm on my SK versus Warriors in equivalent gear.

Oh, and you're right that at very high levels the Paladin sort of runs into a wall with resists and such in this expansion. I agree fully; that's why I never leveled my own to 60. It's a fine class from level 10 or so into the mid 50's, but beyond that Velious tends to play away from the class's strengths. Kunark content is more paladin-friendly, I feel.

Danth

[Noselacri]

Paladins don't really excel at anything. Shadowknight holds aggro just as well and can FD-pull, do okayish DPS and provide snare. Paladin does godawful DPS, and in a good group where you're constantly fighting and chain-pulling, you can't realistically do much healing. A good group doesn't need the tank to provide healing, anyway. Also, in order to hold aggro persistently without med breaks, a paladin needs Clarity or bard mana song, so if that isn't there, it's a problem. SK aggro spells cost practically no mana. Paladin is fine for an exp group tank, but it can get annoying when the tank asks for pulls to stop so he can get back his mana. Flash of Light and stuns cost a fair bit.

[Atmas]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladins don't really excel at anything. Shadowknight holds aggro just as well and can FD-pull, do okayish DPS and provide snare. Paladin does godawful DPS, and in a good group where you're constantly fighting and chain-pulling, you can't realistically do much healing. A good group doesn't need the tank to provide healing, anyway. Also, in order to hold aggro persistently without med breaks, a paladin needs Clarity or bard mana song, so if that isn't there, it's a problem. SK aggro spells cost practically no mana. Paladin is fine for an exp group tank, but it can get annoying when the tank asks for pulls to stop so he can get back his mana. Flash of Light and stuns cost a fair bit.

Flash of Light is very low mana cost and the lowest lvl stun that does no damage is really the only one that should be loaded. A bard of chanter definitely helps, with one of them in a crypt group I can heal myself for the whole clear excluding Emp, some other seb camps I can heal myself even with chain pulls. However, if you are smart about it bard/chanter aren't really essential even with worse gear. Also in comparison to FD pull/snare a Paladin can lull and root/stun.

I do realize though somethings are gear dependent. We should group sometime [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Jaleth]

Originally Posted by douglas1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Play what you want and have fun as long as it's a paladin.

Fixed for you!