Do Not Engage: Warriors Vs. PALs/SHDs

[Duma]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've heard the argument here that warriors are superior tanks in classic EQ because they have better defensive skills, hence better damage mitigation. However, they have issues holding aggro, to the point that they sometimes need to have the DPS classes delay engaging the mob for a while as they gain hate.

Here is my question. While the warrior is doing this, the mob is effectively not taking any damage (OK, it's taking appreciable damage, but compared to the damage it would be taking if all DPSers were engaged, it's quite small). Overall, the mob takes longer to die, and will hence spend more time beating on the tank. If, on the other hand, your tank is a paladin or a shadowknight, DPS classes can engage immediately (feel free to correct me if I have this wrong), and the mob hence goes down faster, and will spend less time beating on the tank.

How does this extra time spent taking damage compare to the extra damage mitigation warriors have? Can one make a case to use a paladin or a shadowknight instead since the damage taken by the end of the fight might be comparable, or is the superior mitigation so powerful that this issue is minor?

Also, again correct me if I'm wrong, but a warrior has a greater need to focus on DEX and STR gear-wise so that he can hold aggro, while SKs and PALs can afford to gear up with AC, STA, and AGI since they can hold aggro with spells. To what extent does this make a difference in the end game in terms of the ability to soak up damage?

I also hear that warriors get better come Kunark. In what way? Does this mean that SKs and PALs are even less desired?

Wake up call.

1. There is no such thing as "mitigation" in EQ. Higher AC only trends the average hit to be lower among a predefined list of possible hits coded into a mob. It isn't like WoW where AC actually reduces the highest possible hit.

2. Paladins and Shadowknights are considered better group and short term tanks because they could snap aggro on EQlive due to OP spell aggro. Any spell that debuffs a stat on a mob has a ridiculous amount of "hate" added to it. A shadowknight or Paladin only had to disease or stun a mob once on live and they would have never ending aggro.

3. There is no real difference between the raid tanking abilities of the 3 classes because they can all wear the the same armor. The only thing that separates them is the cap on their defense skills and their total HP. Warriors have a higher HP total, but Knights get more AC from shields.

4. Stats like Str, Dex etc are bullshit. They work on a tiered system. Offense + weapon skill + Str gets you another damage table around level 30-40. Or at least that's how it worked on live. By level 40 all melee classes are equal they just upgrade to the final table earlier than others depending on how many points of str you put in on character creation.

5. Dexterity only increases proc chance on weapons that have a proc from 1.0 every 60 seconds to 1.5. Once you hit that tier of effectiveness all further dex is lost.

6. TLDR: Roll whatever you want.

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When I quit playing in 2005, it was 10min 30sec from button press, so, 7.5 min between uses. However, I think it used to be a longer timer, maybe 15min? I'd have to research to be sure.

Some mobs have a very large DB and relatively small DI, such that they might hit for 410 420 430 440... 600. So in this case, evasive would be preferable as long as a max damage round wouldn't kill the tank because each avoided hit is saving a lot of damage. Whereas defensive would just lower the max hit from 600 to 500.

If instead the mob had a lower DB and higher DI, say hit for 225 250 275 300... 700, then defensive is preferred because it cuts the max hit from 700 to 450.

Evasive has the same duration and refresh as Defensive iirc.

What is DB and DI?

Originally Posted by Duma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wake up call.

1. There is no such thing as "mitigation" in EQ. Higher AC only trends the average hit to be lower among a predefined list of possible hits coded into a mob. It isn't like WoW where AC actually reduces the highest possible hit.

2. Paladins and Shadowknights are considered better group and short term tanks because they could snap aggro on EQlive due to OP spell aggro. Any spell that debuffs a stat on a mob has a ridiculous amount of "hate" added to it. A shadowknight or Paladin only had to disease or stun a mob once on live and they would have never ending aggro.

3. There is no real difference between the raid tanking abilities of the 3 classes because they can all wear the the same armor. The only thing that separates them is the cap on their defense skills and their total HP. Warriors have a higher HP total, but Knights get more AC from shields.

4. Stats like Str, Dex etc are bullshit. They work on a tiered system. Offense + weapon skill + Str gets you another damage table around level 30-40. Or at least that's how it worked on live. By level 40 all melee classes are equal they just upgrade to the final table earlier than others depending on how many points of str you put in on character creation.

5. Dexterity only increases proc chance on weapons that have a proc from 1.0 every 60 seconds to 1.5. Once you hit that tier of effectiveness all further dex is lost.

6. TLDR: Roll whatever you want.

That lowering of the average hit is what I meant by "mitigation". Do you have some kind of reference/evidence I could look at RE point 5? I've never heard of this before.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What is DB and DI?

They are the two values that determine the 20 possible values an NPC can hit for. If those values are very small (ie. a decaying skeleton) then rounding may cause there to be less than 20 discrete values.

The 20 values are DB + X * DI where X is an integer from 1 to 20.

For example, according the Steel Warrior archives which I trust more than my memory, Trakanon had a DB of 120 and a DI of 25. So, he could hit for the following values:

145, 170, 195, 220, 245, 270, 295, 320, 345, 370, 395, 420, 445, 470, 495, 520, 545, 570, 595, and 620

This is a perfect example of a mob to use defensive on, because that cuts the max hit from 620 to 370 by altering the damage formula to DB + (DI * X/2).

[Noselacri]

1. There is no such thing as "mitigation" in EQ. Higher AC only trends the average hit to be lower among a predefined list of possible hits coded into a mob. It isn't like WoW where AC actually reduces the highest possible hit.

Well, that's still mitigation. Both are. Doesn't stop being mitigation just because it works a bit differently from how most games do it.

3. There is no real difference between the raid tanking abilities of the 3 classes because they can all wear the the same armor. The only thing that separates them is the cap on their defense skills and their total HP. Warriors have a higher HP total, but Knights get more AC from shields.

Warriors have significantly more favorable diminishing returns from AC exceeding the soft cap. I believe they gain about 45% of the benefit while knights get 37% or something. That'll start to matter in Kunark and Velious, not so much now because the soft cap is 300 worn AC.

[Duma]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, that's still mitigation. Both are. Doesn't stop being mitigation just because it works a bit differently from how most games do it.



Warriors have significantly more favorable diminishing returns from AC exceeding the soft cap. I believe they gain about 45% of the benefit while knights get 37% or something. That'll start to matter in Kunark and Velious, not so much now because the soft cap is 300 worn AC.

Technically it isn't mitigation because there is still a small chance you can be hit for a certain amount of damage. But that's nitpicking.

Everyone get's the same returns from AC in Classic. Softcaps didn't come around until Luclin.

I'm 99.9% sure that's how dex effects procs. But I don't really care to dig through 1000 pages of decade old Steel Warrior threads to find something to cite from a dev.

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Duma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm 99.9% sure that's how dex effects procs. But I don't really care to dig through 1000 pages of decade old Steel Warrior threads to find something to cite from a dev.

OK, but I still don't really understand what you're saying. For how many weapons is DEX effective? At what DEX value does it stop making a difference for proc rates?

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OK, but I still don't really understand what you're saying. For how many weapons is DEX effective? At what DEX value does it stop making a difference for proc rates?

Originally Posted by Wandor from The Steel Warrior

For mainhand weapons:
305 DEX - 2.0 ppm
205 DEX - 1.5 ppm
105 DEX - 1.0 ppm

For offhand weapons:
105 DEX = .5 proc/min
205 DEX = .75 proc/min
305 DEX = 1 proc/min

This information reflects the way things worked on live in the PoP era, although consensus on the boards there was that the mechanic had not changed up to that point. Of course, that was on live. I have no guarantee that the eqemu code duplicates this accurately.

Also, there were a small number of weapons (less than 50) that had an additional modifier on them to make them proc more or less than this standard rate. However, none of them were in classic iirc.

[Duma]

Hmm, I didn't know offhand had a different table for procs than main hand. If anything I thought it would be higher than MH to make up for the fact offhand swings less due to dual wield.

Nice find.

[Crone]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This information reflects the way things worked on live in the PoP era, although consensus on the boards there was that the mechanic had not changed up to that point. Of course, that was on live. I have no guarantee that the eqemu code duplicates this accurately.

Also, there were a small number of weapons (less than 50) that had an additional modifier on them to make them proc more or less than this standard rate. However, none of them were in classic iirc.

Where does a SSoY line up in those proc per minute numbers?

Thanks.

[Mardur]

Weapons generally proc more on emu, so it's not really worth drudging up old classic findings.