Four Loko

[Muchew]

Just had my first four loco... Fruit Punch -- Taste like cough syrup.

If you want a good upper, just mix orange rockstar energy drink, with orange juice, sprite, and vodka.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Itchybottom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The central nervous system consists of your brain and spine -- and the only affect here in regards to it after too much to drink would be encephalitis.

I'm sorry, maybe I woke up and am now in a new dimension in which Alcohol isn't described as a CNS depressant?

You seem to know so many details, yet your grasp of the the bigger picture seems somewhat less than complete.

[Abacab niggah]

Originally Posted by Muchew [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just had my first four loco... Fruit Punch -- Taste like cough syrup.

If you want a good upper, just mix orange rockstar energy drink, with orange juice, sprite, and vodka.

If you want a good upper just do meth, these drinks aren't uppers they just have added stimulants so you end up drinking more since you're momentarily lessening the effect of a depressant ala cheap speedballin'

[Itchybottom]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry, maybe I woke up and am now in a new dimension in which Alcohol isn't described as a CNS depressant?

Alcohol is without a doubt a depressant, no one is arguing the validity of that observation.

Most cells (damaged or not) have an effect on the central nervous system. I was refuting the non-sense that it had something to do with fluid loss in it specifically --

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad

You're ignoring the fact that the symptoms of a "hangover" are directly tied to fluid loss in the CNS rather than the general system of the body.

There is far more depression being caused in your endocrine system, than your central nervous system; unfortunately in the case of most sciences (psychology, comes to mind as a prime example) labels are often in need of review for years before they've been updated. I don't think it's the case that alcohol needs reclassification, but it's effects need to be more widely published and not just available to those of us forking money over for peer reviewed articles. I tried to give you a heuristic evaluation of the biological reaction of ethanol in the body, and ultimately the "real" cause of hang-over and you're replying with word play. I do not appreciate being led by uncritical acceptance of invalid understanding. The current theory in the field, differs greatly (and thereby falsifies) the original postulation that the public layman likes to harp about hang-overs, the newer evidence which has been published by medical journals provided by Acta Neurologica Scandinavica (published by Wiley-Blackwell, as I mentioned in my first post), The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism and similarly (though not as in depth) in part the Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs greatly differs from our understanding of the past. What I'm basically saying is, a decade ago I would have been agreeing with you (aside from the obvious problem with fluid in the nervous system being depleted) -- now, not so much.

I'd like to re-iterate, medical science does not spend much time on alcoholism, other than it's prevention. The timeline for study and break-through on the subject is longer than it should be.

A similar discovery in another field (toxicology) as an example, is the monitor lizard. For the longest time, we thought the bite of the lizard, due to the amount of bacteria in it's mouth is what slowly disabled it's prey. As it turns out, it actually has venom sacks. How was this missed? It is absurd to think bacteria would work that way, which in turn lead Dr. Brian Grieg Fry (PhD, not MD) to take a closer look. It's been causing a big storm in peer-reviewed journals for the last few years, and PhD candidates all over the place are examining lizard species of all walks (last I checked, there were about 1,700 of them with venom, and that was 2009) to break ground with. The amount of those creatures [monitor lizards] that have been dissected over the years, and no one noticed a venom sack pretty much describes my feeling on public opinion turning into fact in sciences and often makes me roll my eyes on Internet forum posts without citation, or full grasp of the concept at hand.

Ideas != hypothesis or theory, yet somehow they still hold just as much water in some circles.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You seem to know so many details, yet your grasp of the the bigger picture seems somewhat less than complete.

So you're insinuating that I am making a compositional fallacy, or ignoring the common cause? Because in both cases, just no. This conversation seems to have de-evolved into a semantics debate (language barrier, terminology) rather than anything constructive. I didn't challenge your idea of "pickling" the brain, because of this. Did you mean cerebral edema or "wet brain" associated with alcoholism? I didn't see how the two processes (pickling and edema) could relate, but I did see mention of the term used for alcohol dementia in non-medical texts which descriptors lead me to edema. That's beyond the scope of hang-over and in most cases end-stage cirrhosis - academically that dives pretty deep down the hole into glial cell membranes and other cytolytic activity.

There's a gastroenterologist locally to me by the name of Dr. Lin Huang MD, he's often referred to as #2 in this field per peer recommendation and I've had conversations with him in length on the subject. What fascinates me the most about his work, is that he actually found when it comes to glycine production and liver function (primarily in the scope of cirrhosis prevention, but would also apply to causation of hang-overs) that you could use bacteriophage activated escherichia coli to boost glycine levels in the body. Not dissimilar to treating hepatitis C by infecting the person with A (mortality rate is 40%, which means 60% chance get better according to the German study) That [glycine boost] would certainly insulate you from some of the effects of hang-over, especially if it was treated with the proper protocol to lessen the a-typical symptoms associated with viral stage infection (of potent e.coli). Of course, this wouldn't relate to compound infections (hepatitis, cirrhosis, diabetes, and/or other immunologic-suppression) or late stage cases, but it could give people a fighting chance when caught early. Then again, last I checked people aren't to keen on using tape worm for dieting either.... So it might not be so great presenting such a treatment to your patient. There are also some specific toxins being studied that alter the endocrine and nervous system directly, that could be applied to future methods of therapy (and abuse by college kids.)

If people think things like Four Loko are bad now (clearly if it's being banned), wait until a "supplement" from some random herbal remedy company comes on the market that enables you to drink more than you should. It's already working well enough (sales volume anyhow) with a placebo from Merck -- in the case of South America and Hepabionta. I'm shooting myself the moment a "low toxicity" gin or scotch come out though.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Itchybottom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff

Yeah I know you know how to say a lot of stuff, and you're obviously very educated.

However, alcohol still crosses the blood/brain barrier with ease, and alcohol molecules still harvest water from a mixture. Or did I sleep through that day in physiology? Your body will also harvest water from your CSF if you become dehydrated enough, right? When you decrease the solution, solutes get left behind, creating a more briny environment, which in turn negatively affects your brain tissues. Not to mention the ~80/10/10 balance of the brain, and the need for CSF to lubricate nuerological structures..

If this is not correct, please tell me in lay terms how it really works, because many people with letters after their names have told me that this IS how it works, and I have been operating "as if."

[Aadill]

These things aren't even remotely appealing.

I'll take a good beer, a bottle of gin, or a bottle of scotch any day.

Stop ruining my alcohol with disgusting concoctions.

[Itchybottom]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

However, alcohol still crosses the blood/brain barrier with ease, and alcohol molecules still harvest water from a mixture. Or did I sleep through that day in physiology?

The trauma we're talking about is actually classified by blood brain barrier integrity. Both cerebral and hydrostatic pressure are correlated to that notion. Yes, it [alcohol] still crosses the blood brain barrier. Hydrolysis and hydroxyl go hand in hand. I'm not sure what mixture you are referring to. Plasma? CSF as stated? Either way -- no, I don't think you slept through your physiology class.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your body will also harvest water from your CSF if you become dehydrated enough, right?

I believe what you're talking about is hyperosmolar hypernatraemia? I'm not sure how to explain it in lay persons terms, but it functionally causes acidosis (increased acidity in the blood) by method of free water depletion (apace with in sodium concentration elevation.) That eventually leads to paralysis in potential (the medical term is hemiplegia), but you'd have to be SEVERELY dehydrated for this to happen. Out-side of scope, again. Eric Kandel would be the leading research scientist to read to understand the pH relation and turn-over volume of cerebral spinal fluid and it's influence on the body in cases like this. In a healthy person, with slight shock to your system stemming from alcohol dehydration, it's just going to retard the delayed diffusional transcapillary transport (microcirculatory system) causing spikes in insulin. Even that is hotly debated at the moment -- since capillary endothelium (the thin cellular layer in blood vessels) simply doesn't show the evidence of being affected like that under scrutiny in real world conditions. This is actually bordering on the edge of my neurophysiology knowledge and I'd have to brush up on the subject [human brain capillary endothelium] to elaborate further. My apologies.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you decrease the solution, solutes get left behind, creating a more briny environment, which in turn negatively affects your brain tissues.

What solution? Serum CSF? If polar solutes (like alcohol) are left behind, the pH is altered (of the serum) and you begin to deal with things like urea being dispensed by the liver (the cycle also involves the kidneys, but not as much) and leading to right back to things like edema and hypertension in the case of alcoholism. In a nutshell -- yes, it's going to negatively affect brain tissue but not by the transport you're elaborating in the short term.

A lumber puncture would cause what you're talking about, but the only thing that has to do with hydration levels is the amount [of CSF] you can reproduce after loss. The brain in this case would be signalling that your CSF is dangerous low by giving you a nasty headache -- which is often a nice regurgitated falsehood that goes along with hang-over causes. I think I see where you're coming from now! I know the origin of that chest nut too -- Dr. Dan Small (a Canadian neurophysiology research scientist) He was a pretty good research scientist in the field, but like Michio Kaku in physics, he often made unsubstantiated claims based on idea rather than supported evidence.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not to mention the ~80/10/10 balance of the brain, and the need for CSF to lubricate nuerological structures..

I presume you are referring to inter-cranial contents? Yeah, wouldn't want the brain to rattle around in there, now would we? I'm impressed you even know about that 2005 publication as a lay-person. Principles of Neurosurgery is a nice text and dismissed a lot of archaic notions in the field (Dr Small actually withdrew a lot of claims, after becoming a pharmaceutical company manager during the publication of this.) If you are further interested in CSF, a generalized document which most neurology students have to cover is Cerebrospinal Fluid in Disease of the Nervous System -- it's a little dated, but it will give you a general outlook of the constituents that make up the muck and how it functions and hopefully nothing in it has really been rebutted (It was published in the 80s) It's not going to cover the ventricular system's relation but it does cover the chemistry associated which a high school student could understand (which you're clearly beyond.)

The three letters after my name used to get me into quite a bit of trouble at first. Expert is a dangerous word, as is becoming comfortable jumping from A to C in scientific method (not validating experimental data and relying on common knowledge) like so many people do after a while. It's so very comfortable... but it shits all over you eventually by letting your peers down when they use erroneous claims you supported.

Originally Posted by Aadill

These things aren't even remotely appealing.

I'll take a good beer, a bottle of gin, or a bottle of scotch any day.

Stop ruining my alcohol with disgusting concoctions.

Fuckin' A right! Throw Ouzo, absinthe and a good brandy into that list and we're talking about truly exceptional enjoyment of the finer things in life. I actually recently acquired a taste for bourbon, particularly Buffalo Trace. I feel almost dirty drinking a non-scotch, but not as dirty as these Four Loko bastards should feel.

[Aadill]

Oh I have me some Ouzo, too.. forgot about that. Sad, as it's sitting on my desk.. how can I not notice these things? Probably because there are other bottles on my desk as well.

Unf.

[Sizzle]

Reading some of this stuff makes my head spin. I'm thinking you take everything your writing and turn it into a book "how to argue with a Hasbin"

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Itchybottom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff

I'll reply later, i gotta go take my test now. Pedi neuro disorders and such [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Trying to get some letters after MY name (even if they aren't including a D.), yaddida!!