Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Slayde [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the same argument as Capitalism vs. Communism. Both can be very good, or very bad. It depends on who is in charge. Ultimate power ultimately corrupts, and this server is rampant with it. So if you're looking for fair I would not start here. /2cents

This isnt Sociology 101. A 'fair' system isnt the point. The point is constructing a system that has enough legitimacy to its members to be able to weather the storms that come with challenging (and rising to) the dominate power on THIS server. You can have a wonderful system of distributing loot - if you do not get any loot, it is irrelevant.

If you 'just want to have fun and not care about loot', I dont see how or why you feel like contributing to a thread about potential loot systems. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters to people who a loot system really matters to is being on top, i.e. getting enough loot to care.

Or the people who don't get enough loot for their members and devise a system that distributes it amongst their higher echelon.

[quido]

Motec you always have been and always will be a coattail-riding beta.

[Tanthallas]

Jeremy and Motec arguing on forums. I miss this.

[Clark]

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[wycca]

Some problems I've always had with DKP -

- You may have the best geared paladin on the server, but hey, your tank lineup isnt deep enough for AoW
- Little Sally can save up for that dream item she has always wanted, blow all of her dkp...and be running around with no ear slot and cloth armor
- Busy Jimmy who amassed 1k dkp years ago can come back and start taking items from members who helped keep the guild competitive the last 6 months
- Evil Monks can make pacts to bid low so they can win all/all items
- You may have a superstar cleric or two, but your other 5-8 clrs die to AE's and go oom fast

So yes, theoretically all of those problems are fixable. Theres so many ways to counter the negative parts of DKP. In the end, you put bandaid upon bandaid upon the entire system.

In the end, the best thing for guild progression is a data-driven loot council system. Which is why both TMO and IB run one (as well as a host of the top guilds on live did).

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by wycca [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some problems I've always had with DKP -

- You may have the best geared paladin on the server, but hey, your tank lineup isnt deep enough for AoW
- Little Sally can save up for that dream item she has always wanted, blow all of her dkp...and be running around with no ear slot and cloth armor
- Busy Jimmy who amassed 1k dkp years ago can come back and start taking items from members who helped keep the guild competitive the last 6 months
- Evil Monks can make pacts to bid low so they can win all/all items
- You may have a superstar cleric or two, but your other 5-8 clrs die to AE's and go oom fast

So yes, theoretically all of those problems are fixable. Theres so many ways to counter the negative parts of DKP. In the end, you put bandaid upon bandaid upon the entire system.

In the end, the best thing for guild progression is a data-driven loot council system. Which is why both TMO and IB run one (as well as a host of the top guilds on live did).

You sir are trying to fuck a stranger in the ass.

Each of your points are either bullshit, or easily fixable.

Bullshit points: if a guild raids regularly, that means it gets loot. Highly doubt any real world situation in which a paladin gets all the loots and the warriors are all still in crafted. Only way that -- and several of your other scenarios -- happens is if you got piss poor attendance, in which case you are not probably killing anything at all.

As to people taking breaks, or excessive dkp gaps, either you are ignorant of DKP or you are, as I said, trying to fuck a stranger in the ass.

1) It is the *norm* that if someone takes a break, their DKP gets frozen + reduced by a % until they are back in good standing. I have been in several DKP guilds, and never have I seen someone "come back from a break" and be allowed to bid on an item.
2) It is also the *norm* that DKP amounts are periodically adjusted so that new members are not permanently outclassed on bidding. Again, this is the norm, and is not mysterious. Everyone's DKP's get adjusted so that bidding is more competitive. No accumulating 10k DKP: it will just get scaled down during the adjustment, so might as well spend.
3) The problem of people conspiring to not bid against each other is obvious, unless you have a zerg guild with so many members you cannot keep track of the character of your guild members.

They are trying to fuck you in the ass, people. They are tryi8ng to say, they know best, and you can't be trusted to decide when and what you want for YOUR character.


5,4,3,2,1 until Cecily or another Heather guild says, "The fact you are so concerned makes me worry you are a loot whore."

I'm an enchanter. Have been since 99. I could play in cloth and cha/resist gear and be fine. Consider the source people. And consider, DKP is widely used with great success, but the most drama-oriented guilds hate it. Why?

Eliminates the power of the Heathers at the center. Heathers hate to lose power.

[Orruar]

Re: Sadre
^ You are crazy paranoid and overly obsessed with ass fucking.

The point was that DKP can be just as shady as loot council. No matter what system you use, you need good people running it to be effective. And when you have good people running the system, a metric-based loot council will be far more effective and allow the guild to progress faster, thus leading to more loots. There's a reason the majority of top guilds use some form of loot council. And any well run loot council system will have enough transparency to get over your ass fucking paranoia.

[radda]

i didnt read anything but vote zero-sum

[ArumTP]

My personal issues with DKP
-large un-ascend-ablely large DKP pools that can grow.

This is a problem that is more unique to P99 than in live. On live we had more and more new content and items to spend our points on. On here we stagnate, there isn't a new continuous flow of BiS items to go spend it on.

Its pretty easy to go full planar (and even sometimes full sky as well) but the next step VP/dragon/god loots is a point that people get locked out on. It becomes all you can spend it on, and you just never get it, so the dkp just piles up. Other toons in a guild end up in the same spot, and soon all you have is a guild force that needs nothing but that top tier loot, and no means to acquire it.

Pools get so large that DKP has no value, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000 dkp if you got nothing to spend it on.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by ArumTP [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My personal issues with DKP
-large un-ascend-ablely large DKP pools that can grow.

This is a problem that is more unique to P99 than in live. On live we had more and more new content and items to spend our points on. On here we stagnate, there isn't a new continuous flow of BiS items to go spend it on.

Its pretty easy to go full planar (and even sometimes full sky as well) but the next step VP/dragon/god loots is a point that people get locked out on. It becomes all you can spend it on, and you just never get it, so the dkp just piles up. Other toons in a guild end up in the same spot, and soon all you have is a guild force that needs nothing but that top tier loot, and no means to acquire it.

Pools get so large that DKP has no value, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000 dkp if you got nothing to spend it on.

The problem you describing is a function of playing on a static server, not a problem caused by dkp systems. If you cap your dkp hoarding rules, say at 100 dkp, you still have the exact same problem if there is no loot to spend it on anymore.

You'll see some of the hoarders tap into the dkp pools in velious to get some hot items first...but you'll be in the same boat in 3 years...or 5 years...or 7 years.

Its a static server. Loot eventually loses its meaning compared to live. There are a couple of exceptions, but by and large, this is the future if this server survives long enough to get there.

This is why I don't understand why there is so much loot loving on this server. In the end, even the best items in the game are going to be worth far far less than you could ever have imagined them being on live. You'd think this setup would lure the folks who love to play EQ for "non-loot" reasons---when the reality of p99 is that (at least it seems without knowing the data) most of the server is engaged in never ending attempts to acquire more loot.

I mean, to each their own. I'm obviously wrong (or at least in the minority) when it comes to how I play the game here. Its just surprising to me how many folks on p99 are playing so "hard-core" when they know the server isn't going anywhere after velious launch/patches. On live, we played that way because you had to maintain your advantage for the next expansion.