Class C loses mobs on every repop?

[Elements]

Thanks for being reasonable guys. The point is that if a guild nabs 2 FFA mobs they are done on a repop. They can no longer compete even amongst their own class which is silly for a class intended to be competitive. Perhaps leave the bag limit on class R/ FFA at 2 and remove the bag limit from class C on repops?

[baramur]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Repops are 18 mobs, 12 outside VP get rotated (4 for each category). There are three Class C guilds. Since each class C guild can kill two targets outside VP, unless C guilds voluntarily disregards their mobs for 6hrs, your category will kill a guaranteed 10 out of 18 mobs, 55%. Since that will still leave 2 mobs in the Class C bag (3x2-4=2), you can kill up to 12 out of 18 mobs, or 66.7% (2 of the FFA mobs). Class R is reserved 22.2% of the mobs (4/18), and can kill up to 8 (4R + 4FFA) mobs of the 18 respawned, for 44.4%. There is no situation where class R category (as a whole) can kill more mobs than the class C category. Every time I've done the math, its worked out to a minimum of 50-55% of the mobs for class C, and ~25% of the mobs for class R, with the rest FFA between C, R, and PUGs. For normal spawns above, and repops in this post.

Ok just make VP FFA and not Class C exclusive, and the results would be tmo/fe/ib will be the only guild killing there. Your using VP as your argument, well that was a perk and incentive to be class C not R. The point is FFA mobs should be just that FFA, no matter of bag limit. Class C mobs should always only be for class C, until 6 hours has passed putting them into FFA. There is no reason on a server repop, why any bag limit should be enforced. You already have a rotation enforced why the 2ndary condition. Repop should be on average 4 class c, 4 class r, and 4 ffa mobs. There is no reason TMO should not be allowed to destroy all 4 class c mobs, thats what class c wanted, and FFA mobs should be just that, free for anyone to kill regardless of guilds working together, etc.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for being reasonable guys. The point is that if a guild nabs 2 FFA mobs they are done on a repop. They can no longer compete even amongst their own class which is silly for a class intended to be competitive. Perhaps leave the bag limit on class R/ FFA at 2 and remove the bag limit from class C on repops?

Reason I wouldn't suggest that is it basically allows for one guild to get 12/18 of the spawns (class c x 4, FFA x 2, VP x 6). That would go against the purpose of the original restrictions I think?

Class C should be allowed to exceed the 2 bag limit within their class of mobs but be restricted from FFA mobs if they do so IMO.

[Hitpoint]

Well we keep using this example of 4 FFA mobs and 4 class C mobs. It might be because that's the example I used then I brought up the problem, or it might be because that's how yesterday was. But lets talk about a different example. What if enough mobs spawn late, and enough other mobs spawn early, that we get 6 or 8 class C mobs on a repop? It's unlikely, but possible. In the first example, class C can't kill any FFA mob or they lose a class C mob that is guaranteed them as per the rotation. In the latter example, there is no possible way for us to kill all 8 class C mobs.

Lets take it even further. Summer rolls around, and the server sees a huge dip in numbers. Now FE and IB's rosters have taken a hit, and they can't kill the harder class C mobs by themselves anymore. Or maybe they just choose to raid separately. Whatever the case, if there are 6 class C mobs on a repop we would automatically lose 2 of them from Class C.

My point is, however unlikely, we should strive for a system that does not allow these things to potentially happen. And we shouldn't be forced to split up just to make sure class C mobs get killed, although it is very fun.

Thank you all for keeping this discussion constructive so far.

[Erati]

after we experience a few more rounds of 'sim patch' repops I think the Class C guilds should have enough info to put together some observations in the Raid Discussion forum about what alterations to the bag limit mechanic they would like to see applied to their tier.

I see where you guys are coming from, and it seems some things functioned a little more 'clunky' than had attended however with a system like what was implemented really the only way to work out the kinks is by diving in and trying it out

id say that considering none of this was even a remote thought a month ago to where we are now with the P99 raid website, we have come a long way

[williestargell]

There are 8 mobs between Class C and FFA each repop day. 3 guilds to kill 6 of them (unless there's some future ruling that IB/FE can't act like a single guild inside VP and act like two separate guilds outside).

They get to pick which of them they want to go for first and that pretty much means the two left on the table are the least desirable of the 8 anyway. For example Gore was left up for last yesterday cause none of the C's really cares about Gore anyway. One of the mobs will be Maestro 2/3 of the time and there won't be any Class C tiers shed if they skip him. The bag limit has an extremely minimal effect on Class C guilds.

In addition, the bigger class R guilds are going to run into the bag limit just as often as TMO/FE/IB. Both Taken and BDA bag-limited and had to stop on day 1 when mobs were still up. Divinity will bag-limit pretty often too. Even some of the smaller guilds are going to bag limit occassionally.

It's no more restrictive to the C's than it is to many of the R's.

Class R guilds will also be more willing to compete for the FFA's with shorter variances and more assertive play nice rules so there's nothing to say that the Class C guilds are going to need more than 2 kills outside VP anyway.

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by williestargell [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are 8 mobs between Class C and FFA each repop day. 3 guilds to kill 6 of them (unless there's some future ruling that IB/FE can't act like a single guild inside VP and act like two separate guilds outside).

They get to pick which of them they want to go for first and that pretty much means the two left on the table are the least desirable of the 8 anyway. For example Gore was left up for last yesterday cause none of the C's really cares about Gore anyway. One of the mobs will be Maestro 2/3 of the time and there won't be any Class C tiers shed if they skip him. The bag limit has an extremely minimal effect on Class C guilds.

In addition, the bigger class R guilds are going to run into the bag limit just as often as TMO/FE/IB. Both Taken and BDA bag-limited and had to stop on day 1 when mobs were still up. Divinity will bag-limit pretty often too. Even some of the smaller guilds are going to bag limit occassionally.

It's no more restrictive to the C's than it is to many of the R's.

Class R guilds will also be more willing to compete for the FFA's with shorter variances and more assertive play nice rules so there's nothing to say that the Class C guilds are going to need more than 2 kills outside VP anyway.

Yes Class R will cap just as often. But the entirety of Class R won't be losing guaranteed Class R mobs because of it, another class R guild will move in instead. That's the main point that I'm trying to get at here.

[falkun]

But you are choosing to relinquish those mobs, likely because FFA mobs are tastier. You are trading competition within your own tier (going after C-mobs only) for competition amongst the entire server (FFA). If anything, you've likely increased competition by going for FFA mobs over C mobs. If C is worried about losing C mobs to R guilds, then kill your C mobs. FFA mobs are for everyone to compete over, they aren't yours by default. If you decide to go after them first, that's a choice you'll now have to live with.

[falkun]

If you remove the bag limits within C, then C will just go after FFA mobs before attempting C mobs. This is exemplified by the repops over the last two years where TMO would go after VP only after all the non-VP mobs were downed.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But you are choosing to relinquish those mobs, likely because FFA mobs are tastier. You are trading competition within your own tier (going after C-mobs only) for competition amongst the entire server (FFA). If anything, you've likely increased competition by going for FFA mobs over C mobs. If C is worried about losing C mobs to R guilds, then kill your C mobs. FFA mobs are for everyone to compete over, they aren't yours by default. If you decide to go after them first, that's a choice you'll now have to live with.

I think this is a pretty reasonable argument in the end, although I would agree with Hitpoint that it isn't really what the Class C guilds thought they were getting into (not that they agreed to anything in the end anyway).

Regardless, I somehow feel like the Ploktor/Loraen plan (1x FFA repop per week that doesn't affect timers, full GM enforced rotation on all 'normal' spawns) was just better. We're already seeing poopsocking and people 'competing' in the R tiers and rotating in the C tiers. I suppose we can just give this a few months and see how it goes and maybe change things up later.