Velious Variance Discussion:

[Tiddlywinks]

I'm not lost.. and the removal of an artificial raid rule doesn't go far enough.

All non-classic raid rules need to be removed, and threads like this, by people such as yourself should have no place on a classic server.

It shouldn't even be a discussion. The rules should be classic, and the players should play within that sandbox. The fact that, so far, this has NOT been what has happened on this server is sad and unfortunate.

EDIT: Also, unlike you I should mention I don't give 2 shits about TMO, any other guild on the server, or any individual player. The only thing I care about is classic EverQuest, and the fact that on the one box that says they strive to achieve it they have created non-classic rules, warped player-csr interactions and in efforts to keep as many players content and happy as possible, generally bent over and strayed from their stated goals so that they can have a large playerbase with decent prime-time numbers online. Give me a box that is truly classic with 0 other people on it and I would be content.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Tiddlywinks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not lost.. and the removal of an artificial raid rule doesn't go far enough.

All non-classic raid rules need to be removed, and threads like this, by people such as yourself should have no place on a classic server.

It shouldn't even be a discussion. The rules should be classic, and the players should play within that sandbox. The fact that, so far, this has NOT been what has happened on this server is sad and unfortunate.

I have always supported a no raid rule, no gm interference raid policy. I think most of my Live TMO brethen would agree on that too as that is the way Fennin Ro operated largely.

[Nirgon]

I'm more okay with no variance (it is stupid and leads to mobs spawning at horrible hours of the day) and whoever gets the xp on the raid mob, gets the mob.

It's about as good a determination as "who hit it first", however, it brings people pulling aggro and getting themselves killed into the equation and who brought the stronger KS group (read: elements of preparation and possible aggro management vs damage done skill) etc.

Not to mention? Whoever got the xp on the mob fucking got it, no need for a GM to look into god damn anything.

Why this has evaded reasoning on the matter is completely beyond me.

And more back on topic: Alarti is absolutely right. You will not need a variance timer on Lord Vyemm and especially it will be absolutely stupid on faction leaders in Velious.

"Oh I'm a dwarf faction player, I want to turn in my 10th ring... I'll just sit here and camp Dain with the variance trackers" <-- that makes sense!? really!??!!?

Here's the more intelligent scenario:
Le Dorf Faction Newb: "Hey TMO guy, I'm someone who doesn't hate on you in game and on the forums... when did you guys last kill Dain?"
Answer: "We killed him on Tuesday at 7pm eastern US time instead of 4:45am Wednesday because he's not on a stupid variance timer. Feel free to hand it in while we are buffing and clearing the basement drop in area for the pull"
Le Dorf Faction Newb: "Wow thanks and this no variance stuff sure is classic"

[Nirgon]

Honestly, why this is some unsolvable problem that involves wasting Sirken's time just... if I think about it too hard, I'm sure a bubble will form in my brain and pop and kill me.

You really think an idea that Nizzar suggested is good for the server? Jesus.

[xCry0x]

Originally Posted by Tiddlywinks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Create a classic atmosphere and let the players decide how they wish to handle things in a traditional manner. You can all show up with 400 people mob after mob for a shot at FTE lottery or you can grow up and rotate things.

Those are the only options that occured during early EverQuest. The fact there's more raiders now shouldn't matter.

Look at the current sky schedule mess. There are 10+ guilds now all wanting to do sky weekly and all those guilds could also contest everything outside of VP. A full blown rotation would be completely insane.

This argument is always beaten over the head and it seems like people completely ignore the fact that the progression on this server is altered from classic primarily due to the improper delay between expansions.

The length of time the server has been in its current stage has allowed an excessive number of people/guilds to be able to attempt and succeed at content their guilds would have classically not been able to accomplish. From what I remember on live there sure as hell was not close to 10 guilds that could do isle 1-5 on sky or the current ~7-8 guilds that could full clear sky. This translates into the situation where if dragons were on static spawns you would have this gigantic number of dragon capable guilds waiting vs on live where you had maybe 2-3 who could actually kill the shit.

If there was a 10 guild rotation on track with a static 7 day spawn (getting rid of variance?) then you would get 1 guild kill every 10 weeks... you would also have a mass guild fragmentation as nobody needs more than 2-3 groups now since you can schedule your 2-3 groups to get on. This means realistically you could be looking at 15+ trak capable 'guilds' and you only get a shot once every 3 months.

Last time I said this people argued back that at least under that system they would get a 'chance'. I understand that, but you are also talking about a 1/15 1/15 chance every 3 months on one of the 2 items dropping being what you want. That means in an entire year of doing trak with your guild you would only see half of his loot table (assuming you never get a duplicate).

That said, completely randomizing spawns would not be horrible because it would not allow raid forces to shift based on what mobs are in window. If every mob is always in window you would be forced to prioritize OR be forced to actually be a mobile raid force vs a static poop socking raid force. (I am assuming TMO generally poop socks raid forces at targets.. I honestly don't waste the time paying that much attention =P)

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TMO will absolutely not have to balloon in size for Velious. But this isn't a TMO thread as much as you want it to be Deajay.

The points of my thread:
1) Remove variance (Paragraph #2). This is pro-server and even you agree with that.
2) Variance makes NToV a PITA (Paragraph #3). Do you disagree?
3) Do you think the top guilds will go after NToV mobs immediately on spawn or do you think they'll wait a while (Paragraph #4)? Since TMO is currently the top guild, I asked you the question. From my Classic experience, my guild had designated raid times, so we killed what was up when we raided, not raided when stuff was up. I'm trying to get a different opinion here and you are jumping down my throat about it.
4) TMO will adapt to best suite its environment. This is an observation, why do you take it negatively (Paragraph #5)? You sound like you agree as you attack my post.
5) The rest of the server does not feel like adapting for the environment and is content with raiding the way I classically raided, when they want to regardless of when mobs spawn (Paragraph #6).
6) I do not feel random would help players on the server like myself.

If you want to feel I'm attacking TMO, that's your prerogative. But you wanted my opinion on Variance, I listed it above in point #1. The rest were additional discussion because TMO appears to be the ones who will enter NToV first, where Variance will detract from the Classic experience the most.

You see me "attack" TMO because you want to, not because I am.

[falkun]

Alarti, if you really want something to respond to, answer the elephant in the room:

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

After all this time in Kunark with Variance, TMO wants to remove it because it'll make NToV more annoying?

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You see me "attack" TMO because you want to, not because I am.

Your implication was pretty clear. You are either stating that TMO or Myself want to change rules to suit our needs. Implying that we are self-serving in nature.

Maybe you are just so used to attacking TMO you don't even realize when you are doing it anymore.

But for the purposes of this thread you seem to not like variance, so lets move on.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I suspect that a variance in NToV would benefit TMO over the long run way more than any other system. We have enough alts, CotH bots, and rez sticks to quickly get a raidforce to anywhere inside the temple in short order.

A linked respawn with training disabled would allow other guilds to split into other directions and claim at least some kills.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by xCry0x [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at the current sky schedule mess. There are 10+ guilds now all wanting to do sky weekly and all those guilds could also contest everything outside of VP. A full blown rotation would be completely insane.

So? Then don't set up a rotation. The players are free to do what they want to determine how the raidscene functions.

This argument is always beaten over the head and it seems like people completely ignore the fact that the progression on this server is altered from classic primarily due to the improper delay between expansions

The length of time the server has been in its current stage has allowed an excessive number of people/guilds to be able to attempt and succeed at content their guilds would have classically not been able to accomplish. From what I remember on live there sure as hell was not close to 10 guilds that could do isle 1-5 on sky or the current ~7-8 guilds that could full clear sky. This translates into the situation where if dragons were on static spawns you would have this gigantic number of dragon capable guilds waiting vs on live where you had maybe 2-3 who could actually kill the shit

If there was a 10 guild rotation on track with a static 7 day spawn (getting rid of variance?) then you would get 1 guild kill every 10 weeks... you would also have a mass guild fragmentation as nobody needs more than 2-3 groups now since you can schedule your 2-3 groups to get on. This means realistically you could be looking at 15+ trak capable 'guilds' and you only get a shot once every 3 months.

Last time I said this people argued back that at least under that system they would get a 'chance'. I understand that, but you are also talking about a 1/15 1/15 chance every 3 months on one of the 2 items dropping being what you want. That means in an entire year of doing trak with your guild you would only see half of his loot table (assuming you never get a duplicate)...

Theres a lot of things that make this server not-classic aside from delays between expansions. The players are completely different. We all have knowledge of all the content. Most have done it before. There are more raiders than casuals. The list could do on and on. My point is it shouldn't matter. The players should NOT be catered to. If the players want to sit around in groups of 400-500 and wait for a dragon let them. That's their perogative.

The server is either an honest attempt to recreate classic or it isn't. Classic rule sets were what they were. Any amount of player/staff lobbying to change them for ANY reason (non classic playerbase/understaffing/too many raiders) is not the answer, and can only take away from the final goal of creating a classic server.

It seems like the systems we have in place are attempting to artificially create a classic atmosphere (1-2 raid guilds on top play hardcore, the rest are called "Casual") more so than a classic server. That classic atmosphere is gone, and has been for 13 years, we're not getting it back. Artificial re-pops, raiding rules that never existed on live, and anything else are not going to re-create it. So why now just create a sandbox and environment that is true to what people want, and let THEM decide how they deal with it?