First Aggro + 15

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

You know, I've seen a number of responses to this thread talking about camping.

A few are reasonable and mention that camping will still take place (something I never denied).

Some are claiming that there will still be camping (ignoring the better/worse amount of camping dimension) and simply declare it to be fail because there will be some amount of camping.

And... a few responses display either a staggering lack of understand of absolute value, greater than/less than, basic arithmatic... an amazing capacity for cognitive dissonance... or a relentless willingness to troll my thread.

That said, after further consideration, I have decided that the only useful purpose of spawn variance was the push the spawns around the clock and balance time zones. So, I have changed the proposal to eliminate it. The proposal now suggests adding exactly 6 hours to the base spawn time of raid mobs so that they will naturally progress around the clock.

[G13]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

6 Targets* 12 hours variance -- 72 hours. Now assuming that's total hours per week, no windows overlap, thats 60% of a week. That's assuming 24/7. Cut it down to playable hours and it only gets worse.

First 15 relies upon camping. So does this proposal.

You know I keep reading these threads and it's the same shit over and over.

So I'm just gonna say it

Even FFA would rely upon camping. It won't stop the smart guilds from devising ways to be in the best position possible to get the mobs. That's being there when they spawn. At the ready. Hence "camping"

None of you people get it still. The logical conclusion to all of these different proposals, tactics, from IB starting the camping thing by using druids to camp in shifts so their entire guild didn't have to, all have to come to this point. If you want mobs you have to camp them. Want to stop guilds from doing it? I guess either try to KS them, or call timers, or roll call them. More than one guild going to camp a mob? Have bards in shifts spamming AOE song to catch first aggro, batphone/guild at the ready.

This is why I continue to scratch my head when IB says "FFA will save teh raids!". They were the ones who started the abnormal camping methods in the first place. I really don't understand why they bitch about camping so much now. They sure didn't have a problem with it when their druids were doing it for them and they could be logged off doing other shit. Must have been nice huh guys.

Nobody seems to remember this who is in their guild for some reason. Now that their entire guild has to do what their druids were doing for months, suddenly it's "cheap". Every time Alawen brings his kleenex to a thread I want to scream at the guy "YOU camped mobs for 6 months 12 hours a day. Please STFU"

They were the ones who proposed variance. They were the ones, along with a few other guilds that created the current raiding rules. Now everyone is going apeshit trying to figure out what to do because people are actually willing to camp the boss mobs. You think this is going to get better in Kunark? It's going to get worse. Trakanon anyone? VP keys anyone? We have only seen the tip of the iceberg.

In reality, Everquest is an extremely flawed game. It was a good idea, but other MMos have vastly improved upon the genre. The nostalgia of the old raiding scene is skewed. People handled it differently from server to server. No 2 servers were really alike to be honest. You have 5-6 mobs a week right now. A WEEK. All of them are pushovers. None of the loot except for a select few items are jaw dropping. People pass the time by bitching at each other on the forums. Kunark isn't even going to be out until probably next year anyways. The current raiding guilds will be burned out long before then, so none of these mobs, and none of this shit even matters right now. How is sky going to be handled? FFA? First 15? Seriously?

The end game here has been a dick waving contest since day one. It's been basically IB waving their dick in everyone's face and trying to one up the server until another guild decided to step it up to as far as you can possibly take this. I don't even blame IB for doing it, I just wish they would have handled it better instead of rubbing it in everyone's face with shit eating grins. It created this massive ego stalemate between both guilds now which is a shame.

First nobody but IB could really even kill the bosses. They never had a chance to practice indefinitely without another guild hassling them and calling timers for months like IB did, You have to remember the first two guilds were on a rotation. They could wipe, retry, wipe, retry. Other guilds haven't had that luxury. They had to adapt to survive. It really annoys me when I see these noobs who have never done a damn thing or even TRY to kill a mob come in here and try to dictate new raid rules. Or some scrub recruit from one guild or another try and dictate shit. They don't have a clue.

It takes a lot of effort, organization, morale boosting, leadership, ect. to hold together a raiding guild. I give a lot of credit to the leadership of both DA and IB. They have worked their asses off. Their members have worked their asses off. It's hard fucking work to kill shit on this server. Camping is nothing. Try getting 30 min timer called on you as soon as Vox spawns. Get your raid together, pull the trash, buff, and kill Vox within 30 minutes. One mistake and it's a potential wipe. If none of you can do this for Vox, how are you going to do it for Trakanon.

I haven't seen any of you fuckers organize your guilds and even attempt to call a timer on DA or IB. Divinity maybe once or twice. Remedy? Fuck no. All they do is farm trash in the planes over and over. GC? lol. WI? Whatever. Trans? They made a few half hearted attempts at druid tracking but their guild never gave a fuck even enough to login for a batphone. Poopsocking had nothing to do with it. Am I missing anyone? Dutchmasters? Who

As far as I'm concerned the only people that deserve to create new raiding rules are the 2 guilds that have actually raided. The two guilds that have put in the time, effort, organization, mobilization, tracking, and raiding. IB and DA. The rest of you scrubs can fuck off. You've never done jack shit to earn the right. You never challenged IB. You never even tried. You were too chickenshit or lazy to put any effort into organizing yourselves and getting kills. Not even a druid/batphone setup to call ONE timer or roll call. Not once. Now you want to create new raid rules? No fucking thank you. I don't care for IB's methods, or the trolling by a select few of their members, but I respect the effort they have put into getting their mobs. The rest of you are useless. This server could have had a much better raiding environment if you people had organized even a little bit and contested some mobs. Called some timers. Made shit interesting. But you rolled over like a bunch of pussies and are now whining and bitching on the forums talking shit. Well guess what. IB and DA are getting to experience the Gods and Dragons, grabbing the loot and you guys are holding your dicks.

Yea I said it because I'm sick of this shit. Nothing is going to change. Stop making these threads pretending like shit is going to change, and you know wtf you are talking about. Stop talking and start DOING something in game. I imagine raiding sucks when you've killed your 2549th Shiverback or Loathing Lich and have yet to engage one boss. in 9 months. When DA and IB decide to stop raiding you guys can go plant your fucking tulips, hold hands and dance in a circle, and do your rotation thing or something.

[Skope]

Something like an FFA with first 15 to aggro could work in theory, but you'd have to keep the spawn variance as is to deter the camping. If you decreased spawn variance it would benefit those that have been there for days due to less need for mobilization. It essentially boils down to a race between getting back to your PC or another guild mobilizing a 15+ raid force and getting to the target. My bet is that the campers will probably win out.

Divinity has called timers on guilds and it has been successful. Right now, though, guilds engage targets with 40+, 50+, even bordering on 60 players. The chance to fail on something like naggy, inny, or CT with that many people is damn near null. Depending on the target, it's practically not worth calling timers at all. The only two exceptions I can think of maestro, vox, and perhaps draco. Essentially a single dragon, and even then if the guild has resist gear and the proper tactics it'll be a very slim chance of a wipe.

If the spawn variance were any smaller (say it were 12 hours) it would be advantageous to any guild that sits there for 12 hours. Thus the only deterrent against camping would be leaving the same variance, but even then you're not guaranteed that guilds won't camp, because it does still give them a slight advantage. Also consider that in a rush to engage the target there inevitably be training, jumping, and other foul-smelling business. Thus my issue with FFA is the same as the GMs; it WILL ultimately make their job a living hell.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Something like an FFA with first 15 to aggro could work in theory, but you'd have to keep the spawn variance as is to deter the camping. If you decreased spawn variance it would benefit those that have been there for days due to less need for mobilization. It essentially boils down to a race between getting back to your PC or another guild mobilizing a 15+ raid force and getting to the target. My bet is that the campers will probably win out.

Divinity has called timers on guilds and it has been successful. Right now, though, guilds engage targets with 40+, 50+, even bordering on 60 players. The chance to fail on something like naggy, inny, or CT with that many people is damn near null. Depending on the target, it's practically not worth calling timers at all. The only two exceptions I can think of maestro, vox, and perhaps draco. Essentially a single dragon, and even then if the guild has resist gear and the proper tactics it'll be a very slim chance of a wipe.

Morbid curiosity but why would a bigger spawn variance deter camping, instead of a smaller spawn variance that would shorten the length of potential camping? I don't understand your logic.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stupid stuff.

You know, I would say your forum handle must be your age after that word vomit of uselessness, but the punctuation in your commentary suggests otherwise so I digress. Dumesh and I have been in and leading raiding guilds that raided 5+ days a week since Kunark. I know he speaks from a place of vast experience in the raiding world of Everquest.

NOTHING about this server or this content is new, hard, or intriguing; so acting like your guild is the first and best at what it does with 10+ year old content is a good way for you to look like a fool on this forum and little else.

So why don't you either go to the RnF forums and continue your tirade, or reread the first post and begin offering constructive criticism or commentary that will help bring an end to all these threads and come up with a functioning proper set of raid rules that will be sustainable through all the content that this server is going to release.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Morbid curiosity but why would a bigger spawn variance deter camping, instead of a smaller spawn variance that would shorten the length of potential camping? I don't understand your logic.

Because camping for 12+1 hours is a lot less than 4 days, and in turn a lot easier to camp thus would make people far more willing to do so. There are already 15+ people in zones now, with a smaller variance that 15+ number will exponentially increase because 12 hours doesn't look so bad anymore. The 48+/- hours that we have now is at least keeping the numbers to a minimum. Having it 12 hours (or whatever # you want less than 48) will introduce 2-3 more guilds camping in the same zones as IB/DA.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because camping for 12+1 hours is a lot less than 4 days, and in turn a lot easier to camp thus would make people far more willing to do so. There are already 15+ people in zones now, with a smaller variance that 15+ number will exponentially increase because 12 hours doesn't look so bad anymore. The 48+/- number now is at least keeping the numbers to a minimum.

Ahh ok now I think I got you. So you're saying 15 people camping over several days is better than an entire raid force of 40+ camping for 6-12 hours?

The collective sum of hours camped is what you mean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ahh ok now I think I got you. So you're saying 15 people camping over several days is better than an entire raid force of 40+ camping for 6-12 hours?

The collective sum of hours camped is what you mean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just imagine if 3 guilds were in the same zone camping Innoruuk at that 12 hour variance. Keep in mind the rules are FFA until first to engage.

Now, for anyone who agrees with these rules, would you be able to truthfully tell me that you actually think it's a good idea?

I can guarantee you this theoretical situation would happen and it would happen quite frequently. With such a shortage of raid targets and a decreased spawn variance, guilds will simply put 20 on each target that's in window and wait it out. But with a lower spawn variance, guilds will be less likely to hesitate and follow what IB/DA have been doing recently.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shit.

Would having an IB or DA tag above my head make you take me any more seriously? No, not really.

Either tag above my head would just result in the other side flinging shit for that. You'd accuse me of being an IB lapdog for preferring druid tracking, and then now you shit on me lumping me in with guilds that don't put forth an effort to call timers or put in time.

Make up your fucking mind.

I put forth a raid proposal that you came out and said you thought could work (Suicide Kings), and then here you are pissing all over me when I was disproving FFA's claim shortened raid target windows would free up 85% of the time from camping.

Make up your fucking mind.

You cry about what IB did for months when druid tracking was always done on live. Why? Because if your guild didn't do it, you'd never know when a target was up. Abnormal camping methods are a tracking druid? Claim camping is inevitable, then say that there is no difference between one person tracking and dropping fifteen campers in a zone. There's about 14 people difference last I checked.

You are out of your fucking mind.

Keep thinking IB is terrible and solely responsible for the raiding situation and that DA's shit doesn't stink. If you exclude every guild except IB and DA, that makes DA 50% of the problem.

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It really annoys me when I see these noobs who have never done a damn thing or even TRY to kill a mob come in here and try to dictate new raid rules. Or some scrub recruit from one guild or another try and dictate shit. They don't have a clue.

A clue is not required to see that the current state of raiding is absurd.
A guild could have competed with IB when it comes to mobilization if they got their shit together. Some in DA even admitted that they couldn't compete mobilization-wise with IB in another thread. The evolution of raiding DA chose, camping, killed competition more than a single tracking druid ever did or could have.

Sitting 15+ people in a zone (or more if raid people target windows are shortened) and waiting to see which group's bards dissonance magically aggros a spawning mob first doesn't take any sort of skill, or any sort of finesse. It's not even competition, it's just whichever bard takes it to the face first.

I play to compete. I will join a raiding guild that makes an impact when I feel that reasonable competition is possible. Right now it's a fucking sausagefest at the safespot, and as I stated earlier DA is 50% of the problem -- stop trying to make it seem like this is all IB's fault.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just imagine if 3 guilds were in the same zone camping Innoruuk at that 12 hour variance. Keep in mind the rules are FFA until first to engage.

Now, for anyone who agrees with these rules, would you be able to truthfully tell me that you actually think it's a good idea?

I can guarantee you this theoretical situation would happen and it would happen quite frequently. With such a shortage of raid targets and a decreased spawn variance, guilds will simply put 20 on each target that's in window and wait it out. But with a lower spawn variance, guilds will be less likely to hesitate and follow what IB/DA have been doing recently.

True, but at least then it's a team effort and people would be ready to go. Also Dumesh suggested earlier to do away with the variance and just add +6 to the timer to allow for euro rotation on the mob.

The idea is to create a system that will work now and forever, all the way through Velious and whatever content that the powers that be decide to add after that. In my view I think that does away with any rotation system of any kind, because it will be impossible to keep a list like that going come Kunark and epic mobs, and I don't want to be back here at the drawing board in six months.

This system creates competition, allows for mob variance for euro and Aussie raiding, and an auto form of self policing since violating the policy invokes play nice regulations that are already in place. Will a mob ever be KS'd? Of course, because competition will be tight at first, and people are jerks. BUT, with properly enforced play nice rules that should minimize itself very quickly