Raid Suspension: The Mystical Order

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Prove that. You guys are starting to sound retarded now and looking for any loophole you can. Its kinda along the lines of say you are running to zone out because your group just died and someone runs past you and gets agro from all those mobs once you zone out. You are a cleric, the person sends you a tell saying hey dude that train you just ran past me, aggroed on me and killed my whole group, what do you do and are you to blame? Go.

No we are giving you examples that makes this ruling terrible. I am sorry if you don't understand game mechanics.

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As to this, I'm not too sure about. I'm sure IB does wipe sometimes because their numbers are from what I hear around 40 or so in VP compared to 60-80. You do the math. Sounds like if you would of embraced that idea 2 months ago, you'd be in the clear.

Someone lied to you about the numbers. IB has close to 50 VP raiders. There are hours where they struggle to get 30 on. We have around 65 to 70 and there are hours where we struggle to get on 35.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're giving a bunch of hypothetical examples that are completely TMO based, from TMO members, that doesn't give you much. Majority of the examples you have given prove nothing and you evade any other question that proves that anyone training is not to be blamed. Must be hard to spend so many hours learning game mechanics and still be stupid.

False. I am giving you an example of something that happened at CT las server repop. That if it happened now and was frapsed would get the guild engaging CT raid suspended by the precedent being set by this ruling. No one has evaded any questions because you aren't asking any relevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IB might have 50 VP raiders but during raids there numbers are typically around 40 with 3-5 pullers and maybe 2-3 trained pullers maximum. I've seen screenshots of TMO with atleast 10-15 pullers at those same engages, once again, do the math, I'll even help you this time. If you have 2-3x as many pullers as IB upon engages and even 20% more DPS, how much does that help you in the long run? This will give you a huge advantage in the race for mobs, if IB loses 2 pullers on the train up to pull and you guys lose 4, who is at a huge disadvantage here? Not to mention any dragon that needs 65-70+ people in kunark is just ridiculous.

So again you are saying we should babysit IB because they can't execute with what they have ? That is all I am reading.

[Socratic]

Unless I don't know what you're talking about any more (possible), I gave you an example, and you said something about "it wouldn't happen" or some shit. The fact is that if this ruling became the benchmark it would happen every time you wanted to get your competition suspended.

Player A holds a camp Player B wants. Player A goes to pull a few mobs, Player B runs a mob by them, then gets healed/buffed a bunch, pulling Player A's pull onto Player B killing Player B. Player A gets suspended. Player B gets the camp.

If you run your pull through someone else's mobs then imo you're responsible for the resulting aggro. You can deal with it (the way it's been done in VP up until this fiasco), or drop your pull.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say majority of the VP pulls are pretty cut and dry from the videos I've seen. But if someone gets a jump start on the train up, which probably happened and guild B loses track of where the trainer is and can't catch up to them, it will cause huge problems. Secondly you guys were training up and pulling dragons down, whose to say someone without FD didn't bracer the person pulling from your guild and transferred agro. There is just no telling in that situation.

Yeah there is a way to tell. By the line of aggro those dragons have. It stopped in the video on 2 IB people. Catac and Bandito. They aggroed no one else at zone in until those 2 people were either charmed or dead.

[Socratic]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But if someone gets a jump start on the train up, which probably happened and guild B loses track of where the trainer is and can't catch up to them, it will cause huge problems. Secondly you guys were training up and pulling dragons down, whose to say someone without FD didn't bracer the person pulling from your guild and transferred agro. There is just no telling in that situation.

Not true at all. He doesn't even need to catch up. He could be halfway up the first ramp, wait for the mobs to run back, tag one on it's way down, and then a few aggro casts and bob's your uncle. Trainup handled.

It's actually easier to catch someone else's abandoned trainup than do your own from scratch.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Socratic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not true at all. He doesn't even need to catch up. He could be halfway up the first ramp, wait for the mobs to run back, tag one on it's way down, and then a few aggro casts and bob's your uncle. Trainup handled.

It's actually easier to catch someone else's abandoned trainup than do your own from scratch.

Which is what makes IB's claim that they were prepared to handle the train bogus. They had no clue they had fucked up and just blamed TMO.

[Socratic]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sitting back if they get FTE first or holding your train off to the side since you can't really blame someone for running past your train just as much as you cant blame the person training up for running past his pull. The rules you want can be exploited the same way, training up past someone then dropping the pull once you see they are making it to ZI and claiming they got social agro because they ran past you and not you ran past them. Its stupid.

First, there is no "off to the side" in VP really. The Xygoz pull covers probably 80% of the zone, and any trainup is so spread out that getting it all in a little cubby out of the way isn't possible.

No one should be blaming TMO for getting aggro on the trainup mobs (I don't at least, that's how VP works, esp on a Xygoz pull). What IB is being blamed for is having no trainup at all to handle the shit they got aggro on, bringing it all to zone in, and then blaming someone else.

Read my other posts. The trainup is easy, regardless of where/when anyone else drops their aggro. If you kill a dragon at zone in, then trainup has always been your responsibility, and still should be. This ruling is idiotic.

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I asked you about a similar example with someone training to zone out. Evaded. You have one occasion where a Class R guild did something stupid to Class C because you didn't tell them you were about to engage CT? No way.

Obviously you don't understand what babysitting means. If you are having raid buff IB and pull all their mobs for them, that would babysitting. Sitting back if they get FTE first or holding your train off to the side since you can't really blame someone for running past your train just as much as you cant blame the person training up for running past his pull. The rules you want can be exploited the same way, training up past someone then dropping the pull once you see they are making it to ZI and claiming they got social agro because they ran past you and not you ran past them. Its stupid.

You are a pretty dense fella. I wonder why you even type. It is babysitting a guild in VP if we have to worry that they can't handle what comes with pulling in VP. For example. If say IB pulls through our train up again and makes the same mistake they made in that video. When the cleric heals the bard again. Every bit of the train up aggro will be heading to IB. Heal aggro>face aggro 100% of the time. So at that point we have to sit there and keep runing just to keep mobs off their raid for them. They can sit in game indefinitely and let our train up guy die or flop and then let the train run back down and kill them. Bam another suspension.

There is one guild trying to exploit the mechanics here. It's obvious who they are.

[Socratic]

Originally Posted by PhilMcKracken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This seems less likely compared to the training to ZO explanation I gave, or compared to Player A holds the camp player B wants, player B grabs a huge train and runs them past Player A who is pulling mobs back to his camp and gets hit by something. Player B then FD's and lets player A die and claims it was his own fault because social agro and he should of camped out and the camp is now his. Which is more a dick in the situation? Id go with my option. Either way all the above examples are dumb as hell. The game is flawed bottom line because in any situation you are going to have exploits or people will find exploits. It just falls under you are responsible for what you are pulling and don't be a dick and don't do something intentionally.

Honestly your scenario wasn't clear to me, it sounded like the person zoned out, then another player ran into his mobs (after he was already zoned out), and blamed him? Confusing shit.

The things you don't seem to get is that this unlikely situation of negligence, while "unlikely", is exactly what IB did. They ran their mob through a bunch of shit, then stood there, died, and petitioned blaming the other guild getting them suspended. It's insane.

[Socratic]

We actually had no idea which dragon was going to be hitting the zone in first, which is why we had a trainup at all.

I've already posted several times that picking up a trainup from someone else is easy, and done often, and thus you don't "fuck over" anyone by dropping yours if the other guild is pulling. I don't know how many times I have to say it. It's never been an issue before this, ever, because it's not hard and each guild has been responsible for their own pull.

It's stupid to change something that's been working reasonably well for months and force competitive guilds to aid each-other during pulls AND add a highly exploitable rule that allows you to get your competition suspended when you do something stupid/malicious.