Lols TMO

[JayN]

Originally Posted by Writ3r [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All you chums saying that it was a "solo" incident and those of you who buy that are unbelievable.

Look at how long that scrub was sitting there at their AE, while supposedly "raiding" with his guild who had low numbers. You can't tell me that noob was just sitting there watching the sights for a few MINUTES without talking in /gu or /tells with friends contemplating/discussing what he was about to do.

It is obvious that it is a "well sorry bro you got caught, you're getting thrown under the bus", which i'm sure he was made well aware of before doing it and will be retagged at some point in the near future.

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Good thing there are not logs for gms to check just in case of this very thing!

[VANVEM]

Originally Posted by JayN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Good thing there are not logs for gms to check just in case of this very thing!

THIS!

this is why TMO should be raid banned, the intentional training is a bannable offense, and should be dealt with.

BUT the Fact that a TMO officer was present, did nothing to stop/hinder/or correct the actions of their guild member is PATHETIC!. Nothing will ever change if this is not addressed.

The GM's want people to work things out on their own? FINE!

The implement a policy that makes GM intervention on punishments 10X greater if they are forced to intervene.

TMO blatantly trains 2 weeks in a row and wants to offer a guild COMPLETELY capable of pulling their own mobs a puller for a raid? Are you FUCKING STUPID?

TMO is derailing the topic because they do not want to talk about the issue that Umbrella was present and if not actively participate in the planning of, then at least guilty of promoting the train after the fact.

THAT should merit sanctions on its own. if the "Top" guild on the server has LOSERS running it, then the entire guild should pay for the actions of said officer, and that goes for every guild, you want to name an officer and follow them, then pay the price.

just as in RL leaders are responsible for the actions of their subordinates, whether or not they had previous knowledge or not.

**** props to any TMO that can "SPecifically address the issues, and not derail******

bet you cant do it

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by VANVEM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

THIS!

this is why TMO should be raid banned, the intentional training is a bannable offense, and should be dealt with.

BUT the Fact that a TMO officer was present, did nothing to stop/hinder/or correct the actions of their guild member is PATHETIC!. Nothing will ever change if this is not addressed.

The GM's want people to work things out on their own? FINE!

The implement a policy that makes GM intervention on punishments 10X greater if they are forced to intervene.

TMO blatantly trains 2 weeks in a row and wants to offer a guild COMPLETELY capable of pulling their own mobs a puller for a raid? Are you FUCKING STUPID?

TMO is derailing the topic because they do not want to talk about the issue that Umbrella was present and if not actively participate in the planning of, then at least guilty of promoting the train after the fact.

THAT should merit sanctions on its own. if the "Top" guild on the server has LOSERS running it, then the entire guild should pay for the actions of said officer, and that goes for every guild, you want to name an officer and follow them, then pay the price.

just as in RL leaders are responsible for the actions of their subordinates, whether or not they had previous knowledge or not.

**** props to any TMO that can "SPecifically address the issues, and not derail******

bet you cant do it

You just derailed with fiction. Good read though.

[quido]

I'm offering Chest 3 million platinum in restitution for his immense suffering.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by VANVEM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this is why TMO should be raid banned, the intentional training is a bannable offense, and should be dealt with.

BUT the Fact that a TMO officer was present, did nothing to stop/hinder/or correct the actions of their guild member is PATHETIC!. Nothing will ever change if this is not addressed.

Unbrella got snarky, and that was the wrong thing, but that should carry no penalty or punishment. It just means he acted like an ass. If you've been paying attention, you'd notice that we have dealt with the offender. The presence of an officer is meaningless if there was no real way to prevent the train. If he knew it was going to happen or if he ordered it, that'd be one thing. Here, someone took the matter into their own hands and ran off the rails. There's nothing that Unbrella could have realistically done to foresee this.

Originally Posted by VANVEM

The GM's want people to work things out on their own? FINE!

The implement a policy that makes GM intervention on punishments 10X greater if they are forced to intervene.

Then we end up in a situation where one party, with little to lose, holds the greater party hostage (see Catherin & raid discussions).

Originally Posted by VANVEM

TMO is derailing the topic because they do not want to talk about the issue that Umbrella was present and if not actively participate in the planning of, then at least guilty of promoting the train after the fact.

If I say I think someone deserved something does that make me responsible for it? While it's certainly poor taste to pop off as an officer, getting lippy doesn't mean that you should retroactively be considered the cause of something.

Originally Posted by VANVEM

THAT should merit sanctions on its own. if the "Top" guild on the server has LOSERS running it, then the entire guild should pay for the actions of said officer, and that goes for every guild, you want to name an officer and follow them, then pay the price.

just as in RL leaders are responsible for the actions of their subordinates, whether or not they had previous knowledge or not.

In real life, supervisors are responsible for the actions that are within the scope of the underling's duties. When Chest finally snaps and shoots a bunch of people while wearing his work uniform no one will be able to sue Burger King. Shooting people isn't something the management would put him up to nor is it something they should have foreseen. The only responsibility on Burger King is to say "Woah, yeah, he's crazy. GTFO."

That's precisely what happened here. Dinacarl went too far, and the guild has dealt with him.

I find it hilarious how willing people are to attach severe liability to situations that are clearly beyond the control of the ostensibly supervisory parties. If the guild leadership helps someone break the rules, or if they knew or should have known that something bad would happen then you can attach liability. If they refused to discipline the person then you can consider action, especially if that person screws up again after the leadership agreed to continue housing that person.

Originally Posted by VANVEM

Does TMO condone/support/defend Unbrella's role in this event? Yes or No

Stop setting up a false narrative. You're framing the issue as if Unbrella has done something actionable. He got mouthy, but he still was clearly making himself available for honest attempts at resolution. Unbrella did not train BDA. There is one crime here, and it was punished to the maximum extent within TMO's power.

[Anichek]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is one crime here, and it was punished to the maximum extent within TMO's power.

So that person was guild removed, on all characters and accounts, from TMO?

I'm not RnF'ing, I'm asking....I likely missed a post that clarified the guild's sentence on him.

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by Anichek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So that person was guild removed, on all characters and accounts, from TMO?

I'm not RnF'ing, I'm asking....I likely missed a post that clarified the guild's sentence on him.

It's in the raid discussion thread that Chest posted.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Anichek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So that person was guild removed, on all characters and accounts, from TMO?

I'm not RnF'ing, I'm asking....I likely missed a post that clarified the guild's sentence on him.

Yes.

[hatelore]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unbrella got snarky, and that was the wrong thing, but that should carry no penalty or punishment. It just means he acted like an ass. If you've been paying attention, you'd notice that we have dealt with the offender. The presence of an officer is meaningless if there was no real way to prevent the train. If he knew it was going to happen or if he ordered it, that'd be one thing. Here, someone took the matter into their own hands and ran off the rails. There's nothing that Unbrella could have realistically done to foresee this.



Then we end up in a situation where one party, with little to lose, holds the greater party hostage (see Catherin & raid discussions).



If I say I think someone deserved something does that make me responsible for it? While it's certainly poor taste to pop off as an officer, getting lippy doesn't mean that you should retroactively be considered the cause of something.



In real life, supervisors are responsible for the actions that are within the scope of the underling's duties. When Chest finally snaps and shoots a bunch of people while wearing his work uniform no one will be able to sue Burger King. Shooting people isn't something the management would put him up to nor is it something they should have foreseen. The only responsibility on Burger King is to say "Woah, yeah, he's crazy. GTFO."

That's precisely what happened here. Dinacarl went too far, and the guild has dealt with him.

I find it hilarious how willing people are to attach severe liability to situations that are clearly beyond the control of the ostensibly supervisory parties. If the guild leadership helps someone break the rules, or if they knew or should have known that something bad would happen then you can attach liability. If they refused to discipline the person then you can consider action, especially if that person screws up again after the leadership agreed to continue housing that person.



Stop setting up a false narrative. You're framing the issue as if Unbrella has done something actionable. He got mouthy, but he still was clearly making himself available for honest attempts at resolution. Unbrella did not train BDA. There is one crime here, and it was punished to the maximum extent within TMO's power.

Go play lawyer irl, this is rnf. Your guild member trained an entire raid. Your guild deserves a ban for that. Are you saying guilds have not been banned in the past from a member of said guild training? Companies are held responsible for the actions of there employees all of the time also, I call bullshit on your made up burger king analogy.

You can attempt to rule lawyer this all you wish, but the video does not lie. Your guild should be held responsible for the actions of YOUR guild's members. That is all. Court ajourned.

[Ravager]

Had there not been such damning fraps, Dinacarl would still be in TMO and every one of you would be defending his actions calling it a "pull" like he tried to claim before everyone knew how good the fraps was.

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