Raid Rules Alternative

[Bumamgar]

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's just it. Both guilds will believe they had aggro first. So an entire guild is going to get banned for Ks'ing even though they believe they aggro'd first.

What's wrong with this?

You throws your dice and you takes your chances...

If you don't like the odds, don't camp the spawn.

Problem solved.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's just it. Both guilds will believe they had aggro first. So an entire guild is going to get banned for Ks'ing even though they believe they aggro'd first.

how much do you trust your puller? are you willing to risk a month long ban if he is wrong?

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or the other guild has someone un-guilded train the other guild.

That's why I suggested and account and IP ban. If you train with an unguilded alt on an different account that you are playing with an IP exemption (skirting the rules already) then you will effectively get both accounts banned.

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both guilds are sitting with 5 giants in the way of the dragon. Both guilds know that if they pull the giants the other guild will take the dragon.

So, they have some decisions to make. Maybe they will race, maybe they will work together, maybe they will duel for the right to the kill, maybe they will roll dice. As long as they don't break the rules, I'm cool.

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If adding rules to the first to engage works out. That would be great for the server.

I agree!

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But you know there is going to be a ton more fighting than there is under this camp fest ruleset of who gets the mob.

Only until the first half dozen or so bans get handed out. Then people will realize that the costs of fighting are way higher than the potential benefits. If by fighting you mean training and KSing, that is.

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I like rotation/ calendar system : ) but i'm a carebear.

GM enforced rotations have already been shot down. Barring that, you could maybe have a player run rotation, but good luck convincing all the guilds involved. I know it will be a hard sell with me and many others.

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every other system will have a ton of fighting.

If, by "fighting", you mean KSing and training, then that is just a matter of the penalties being too light. If, by "fighting", you mean racing, then I would say there is a sizable number of players on this server that WANT "fighting".

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like a dev said. 80people will sit on the dragon spawn in 3 or 4 diff guilds. Ban 3 of the 4 guilds for a month for trying to ks the impossible to know first to engage? Than after that dragon dies repeat in the next zone.

Couple things... first to aggro is not impossible to determine. The players involved in the pull should be able to tell, and if they aren't sure, perhaps they will want to err on the side of caution, given the penalties of being wrong. As for after the fact, then GMs will know. It is recorded in the logs. If 3 other guilds, knowing the consequences, all go for a KS, then yes, ban them. If that happens, there most certainly will NOT be a repeat in the next zone, because there will only be one guild left to go after dragon #2. Furthermore, one month later when the other 3 guilds come back from their ban, they probably be less likely to try KSing again.

[Aadill]

I don't think I'd like to play a game in where the consequences of one person's action, and their belief that they are right, will remove me from the game for a month. Perhaps the addition of code with a fake DT shout by the mob that would say who had first agro *would* be appropriate to clear up confusion, otherwise it's just going to be more GM involvement or everyone 'standing down' as one guild gets their way, leading to absolutely zero competition due to the fear of having no way to play for a month.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just trying to work through possibilties. The two planes are for the most part cleared upon repop by any group looking for planar drops and/or people waiting for raid mobs to spawn. There are occurrences of fear being fully populated, with golems, and no one is clearing. If CT popped, this is where the rules could have this clause just to help decide whether or not a guild is just going to sit there and AFK camp for 3-5 hours while the other guild clears and then hop on it, or if they go ahead and get to killing off the rest of fear quicker because they have first shot. There's still a huge race involved but it's not as long of an event.

Cool, I agree that it's prudent that we try to think through the scenarios and what the player incentives are.

I don't think there is much incentive for guild Y to sit mostly afk in PoFear for 3 hours while guild Z is busy killing mobs so that Y can pounce on CT as soon as Z is done. Firstly, why would the players of guild Y want to sit still doing nothing for 3 hours when they could be playing the game? Secondly, why would Z kill off the last mobs while they themselves were out of position to make a play on pulling CT? Nah, I think both guilds would be killing off mobs. Their raid leaders should probably be talking to each other. They will have some choices to make as the zone becomes nearly cleared, but that will make the whole situation a lot more fun and interesting... as long as both sides abide by the rules, which is why the penalties are harsh.

Yes, this absolutely makes it possible that one or more guilds will end up putting in an hour or more of clearing planar mobs and not end up getting the shot on CT. That is a risk, but it is a risk that those guilds will take knowingly. They could always choose to leave the plane. They could choose to bargain for a random or duel to settle first attempt rights before or after the plane is cleared. There are many options, but one thing that absolutely will not be an option is the kind of mostly afk camping for days that happens now.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think I'd like to play a game in where the consequences of one person's action, and their belief that they are right, will remove me from the game for a month. Perhaps the addition of code with a fake DT shout by the mob that would say who had first agro *would* be appropriate to clear up confusion, otherwise it's just going to be more GM involvement or everyone 'standing down' as one guild gets their way, leading to absolutely zero competition due to the fear of having no way to play for a month.

A shout or even a say message on first aggro is not a bad idea at all. I like it a lot. In fact, devs, consider this an official request for a new feature. Many mobs already had this in classic... the whole "You've ruined your own lands. You'll not ruin mine!" thing. Just make sure there is such a message for all raid targets and that it references the name of the player with first aggro.

In the absence of that, each guild better recruit or train a good pull team and have spotters that can call off the dogs if their guild didn't get the first aggro. That puts the onus on the players to pay attention and develop skill, which imo, is always a good thing. If you as a individual in guild Y don't trust that your guild really did get the first aggro, I say just don't participate in the fight, and therefore avoid the ban. I wasn't advocating banning all members of a guild based on the actions of a portion of the guild.

[Deric]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A shout or even a say message on first aggro is not a bad idea at all. I like it a lot. In fact, devs, consider this an official request for a new feature. Many mobs already had this in classic... the whole "You've ruined your own lands. You'll not ruin mine!" thing. Just make sure there is such a message for all raid targets and that it references the name of the player with first aggro.

This would indeed alleviate challenges to who had "first aggro." Definitely support implementing this.

[Akame]

/bump

I really believe this deserves a bit more limelight, there seems to be very few rage style disagreements against Dumesh's suggestion. I think it has a lot of merit and should be encouraged to be solidified and drafted up officially and put into place!

[Aadill]

As of right now, I would agree upon a motion to make the proposal, draft, and discuss this as a possibility. Enacting this ruleset without giving proper consideration to others first may be detrimental.

[guineapig]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A shout or even a say message on first aggro is not a bad idea at all. I like it a lot. In fact, devs, consider this an official request for a new feature. Many mobs already had this in classic... the whole "You've ruined your own lands. You'll not ruin mine!" thing. Just make sure there is such a message for all raid targets and that it references the name of the player with first aggro.

First to hail the raid boss. Easy enough, everyone would also be able to see it.
Once everyone sees who hailed it first, the other guilds have to back off.

Of course this will most likely require a Monk, SK, Necro (or sacrificial ranger perhaps? JK [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]), otherwise you would see raid wiping from being too close to the spawn location of the mob.

(That being said, I'm so against all this camping BS.)

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by guineapig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First to hail the raid boss. Easy enough, everyone would also be able to see it.

Hails can be faked.

put

/say Hail! Cazic Thule.

in a hotkey, spam that when you see him spawn, no need to target him or be in range.

But hey, at least we are talking about the details now. I'm glad a number of people seem to like the basic idea.