Class selection guide draft - Page 6

falkun · #1 01-25-2013, 03:22 PM

But by that logic ANY player will have 60 levels of practice on whatever character they choose. Loraen's guide shows, to the best of his ability, what a class is CAPABLE of. You can still have complete morons and absolute gods that will take a class to the extremely horrible and great, respectively.

With respect to taking more enchanters in groups. The only 2 spots in a group I wouldn't give to Enchanters (in a 6-man group) is the healer (torpor sham or cleric) and bard (me, because I'd want in). 4 ENC with hasted pets are going to outdps e'rybody. And if Alarti wants to come in here and talk about Avatar and PE, let the shaman toss that on the pet (and pray it doesn't destroy the enc when it breaks).

Furme · #2 01-25-2013, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But by that logic ANY player will have 60 levels of practice on whatever character they choose. Loraen's guide shows, to the best of his ability, what a class is CAPABLE of. You can still have complete morons and absolute gods that will take a class to the extremely horrible and great, respectively.

I consider myself a pretty good swimmer.. but at the same time.. I wouldn't challenge Michael Phelps to a race.. In statistics he would be called an outlier.. Setting the scale to an outlier is ridiculous, because for one it diminishes the achievement of the person who accomplished it. By saying "This is what every <: insert class here :> is doing" and secondly it sets a skewed perspective for the person using the guide. (read: a new player)..

Quote:

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With respect to taking more enchanters in groups. The only 2 spots in a group I wouldn't give to Enchanters (in a 6-man group) is the healer (torpor sham or cleric) and bard (me, because I'd want in). 4 ENC with hasted pets are going to outdps e'rybody. And if Alarti wants to come in here and talk about Avatar and PE, let the shaman toss that on the pet (and pray it doesn't destroy the enc when it breaks).

If you really want to hear it again.. In an average group.. with average enchanters.. Not the ones that are in the top 20% of the server.. Would you take an extra enchanter over a rogue? I know most other players on this server wouldn't..

Subnote: I do like enchanters.. I do appreciate that they are one of the most powerful character classes with their abilities to charm, block damage, mez, and stun..
I also know that not every uber-skilled player really wants to participate in the solo artist challenge and that a skilled alternate class is just as useful as an equally skilled enchanter in a group.. I've seen one bard turn an entire group from a failure to a success.. and the same with every other class..

That being said, The point still needed to be made that certain classes were out of whack.. I agree that it's a good reference point, but now it's a bit more accurate..
As I said before though.. Every class is situational, and has their own things that they do better than every other class.. (cept maybe paladins and shadowknights, they're kind of balanced in a lot of aspects)

Invurnus · #3 01-25-2013, 04:10 PM

Very cool idea. I must say it's a bit disheartening to see wizzies as the worst overall class at 60 (non-raid). I told myself I was going to pick the class that was the most interesting to me, practicality be damned, but I can't help but QQ a little at that. Probably pretty accurate though, as even at 29 resists really sap the class' DPS.

joppykid · #4 01-25-2013, 06:06 PM

Don't Dragons die in about 10 seconds anyways?

Reiker000 · #5 01-26-2013, 03:23 AM

Didn't have a chance to read the entire thread yet but a few thoughts on shaman:

Epic: Should be a 10. It's incredibly easy and honestly I'd rather do the shaman epic than the rogue, even though the reward isn't nearly as nice.

Actions: Should be a 9, if not a 10. It scales as you level, but at 60 there's never a moment where you shouldn't be doing something. If you have mana you cast spells and if you don't have mana you cast torpor/canni. There's always something to be casting, constantly.

Gear: Shaman aren't as gear dependent as melees. Their hp/mana are always in flux while neither is maxed, so your pools don't matter much. Getting more HP means you can more comfortably maintain that hp/mana flux. It's worth noting though that the good shaman items are quite expensive. Some cheap wisdom stuff isn't really going to make much of a difference due to the aforementioned reasons, and the hp gear you'll want like black sapphire jewelry, platinum tiara, heiro cloak, etc. carries a bit of a premium.

Other stuff seems about right, except judging a shaman's raid value is difficult. Of course things like buffs, malo, patch heals, etc. are useful, but velious is a little different. There are fights like Aaryonar that completely depend on your shaman, and fights like Avatar of War where you're better off just boxing a cleric. Satisfied with being tied with monk for skill, considering how much skill goes into FD pulling professionally.

Smilkers · #6 01-26-2013, 04:57 AM

Rogue should def. not be listed on-par with the skill level of Cleric/Druid. Seems like it should be listed in the lowest tier as far as skill is concerned.
Possibly even as low as a 1. Not too much skill is required to move behind a target and spam backstab, or to press sneak and stealth / drag corpses past mobs.

Clerics constantly need to monitor entire group HPs, and cleric chains in raids require precise timing. Clerics can also add even more difficulty to their class when charming an undead pet. Druids are sometimes the only CC in group with roots, and druids need split-second reactions to evac a group if a wipe is imminent. Druids can also increase their difficulty when charming an animal.

edit: I would even nitpick that playing a Druid well requires more skill than playing a Cleric.
Druids have to manage their mana at a much more discretionary level, and we have a lot to do in order to participate strongly in a group.

eg: short term DS rebuffing, multiple resists buffing, 15-minute regen rebuffing, nukes when mana is too high, druid arm-dot whenever possible -- and at times -- filling the primary healer role, while still keeping on top of all the aforementioned duties (or CC'ing).
I have been primary healer and primary CC in groups many, many times. Sometimes while maintaining a pet. Clerics can't touch 'dis. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

MaksimMazor · #7 01-26-2013, 06:34 AM

There comes some challenge to playin' a rogue. Back when gauntlet pulls worked you could pull off some crazy pulls if you knew what you were doing, one false move to slow your run speed would get you killed. There's some skill and logic involved with evades and controlling aggro on mobs that kill you in seconds. Also the hide/sneak bug that negates your invis if you loot while still showing your name in ( ) and giving no msgs. If you happen to play while high/drunk occasionally you could forget and train your whole group/raid in an instant. You also get to backstab really hard.

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Fazlazen · #8 01-26-2013, 11:30 AM

I'd put shadow knight at 10 for raiding. There is at the moment no better class than a SK for pulling. Whether it is kiting fear or pulling in hate/fear or pulling/training in VP, a SK will always be the best to do it. And for everything that is not hoshkar, nexona or a quadding druushk, sk can tank them np if properly geared.

They are the best raiding char currently.

Monks are too high on the list for raiding. They mostly fill the role of rogues, but dont dps as well.

theaetatus · #9 01-26-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazlazen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd put shadow knight at 10 for raiding. There is at the moment no better class than a SK for pulling. Whether it is kiting fear or pulling in hate/fear or pulling/training in VP, a SK will always be the best to do it. And for everything that is not hoshkar, nexona or a quadding druushk, sk can tank them np if properly geared.

They are the best raiding char currently.

Monks are too high on the list for raiding. They mostly fill the role of rogues, but dont dps as well.

As someone who has played both, I completely disagree. If there are any 55+ warriors in the raid, you don't want the SK tanking anything serious. Sure, they tank the trash well with nice snap aggro but lots of other classes can do that.

As for pulling, monk is better in 90% of situations and also brings double the dps.

Fazlazen · #10 01-26-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theaetatus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As someone who has played both, I completely disagree. If there are any 55+ warriors in the raid, you don't want the SK tanking anything serious. Sure, they tank the trash well with nice snap aggro but lots of other classes can do that.

As for pulling, monk is better in 90% of situations and also brings double the dps.

The only zones that require fd pulling on p99 are fear, hate and VP. In fear the only mob you'll be pulling is draco, and with nothing in the zone seeing hide, sks generally do better there.

In hate, Maestro is a single pull for decent sks in a fully popped zone. I have not seen monks do that. Inny is a single pull to zone in provided there are no golems on the way for both sks and monks.

VP, well VP is all about sks, gotta love that hide.

And I think you are right, warriors with defensive do better at tanking than sks, but sks make solid tanks as well, especially at the speed mobs die on p99. I wouldnt take a lvl 55 warrior over a 60 sk on fearing dragons.