Game Mechanics: Mellee miss rate seems excessively high.

[President]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Given that logic, a level 1 player, with 0 skill should never hit anything or miss nearly every time.. Which doesnt happen... Face it, there's an issue that does need to be corrected.

Nothing looks out of the ordinary dude. 35% miss rate is not out of the ordinary for a level 12. Hitting for less than max damage is not out of the ordinary. One of those mobs was light blue as well, not just green.

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

Yes - Have you checked to see if the person with 40-50 higher strength is doing full damage more often than the caster?

I would suggest, if you want anything changed, start finding actual information from live or in 1999 and comparing it to here. The dev's aren't going to adjust this into E Z mode based on the complaints of 2 people in the last 6 months who only have their memory as proof and are still in their low teens.

Another thing to note is that it is probably impossible to exactly replicate the combat system of live. I am sure things are *slightly* different but what is balanced is the difficulty. You are going through green mobs relatively easily, having a bit harder time with light blues, and struggling with blues, which is how warriors were back in the day..

[Yoite]

a lvl 1 with 0 skill does miss nearly every time though

[Ruinous]

Our skills in weapons and offense may be low compared to a level 50, but we're not fighting level 50 monsters. They are appropriate for fighting monsters of our level. If you're taking the stance that just because we're low level we are supposed to miss mobs no matter what level they are, you're incorrect. Level difference is, or is supposed to be, taken into consideration when fighting mobs.

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Ruinous [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Our skills in weapons and offense may be low compared to a level 50, but we're not fighting level 50 monsters. They are appropriate for fighting monsters of our level. If you're taking the stance that just because we're low level we are supposed to miss mobs no matter what level they are, you're incorrect. Level difference is, or is supposed to be, taken into consideration when fighting mobs.

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

Remember that we all have a damage cap until level 20.

Here's some more info here... not sure how classic it is, since it talks about bane damage and such, but I would assume the basics are still correct:

http://old.eqcircle.com/articles/sta...aponbasics.htm

To note:

"Delay, and DMG. DMG refers to the base damage of the weapon when whacking stuff, when you are below level 10, the DMG tends to be around a maximum of 2 x the DMG +1. So if the swords base damage is 3 you can do 7 damage with it. When you reach level 10 you will probably notice your damage being more rounded, and when you reach level 20 the damage cap will increase.

A few things effect your damage past level 20, the base DMG of the weapon as before, the base AC of the monster your hitting and your strength. The stronger you are the more rounded damage seems to be (your average hit will be higher), it also seems to give you a slightly higher maximum damage but I'm not aware of the true effect."

[YendorLootmonkey]

Here, I also found this... most of the graphs don't work, but you can read through some of the math involved. It seems to agree with the sub-20th level damage being gimped because you're not getting some damage bonuses. Unfortunately, it doesn't talk about hit ratio... just the distribution of damage points inflicted per swing:

http://web.archive.org/web/200310070...ic.php?t=54615

[Morndenkainen]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here, I also found this... most of the graphs don't work, but you can read through some of the math involved. It seems to agree with the sub-20th level damage being gimped because you're not getting some damage bonuses. Unfortunately, it doesn't talk about hit ratio... just the distribution of damage points inflicted per swing:

http://web.archive.org/web/200310070...ic.php?t=54615

We've known for quite a while that sub-20 damage has been gimped. Its not the damage output that is making this near un-playable for pure melee, its the fact that we cant hit something 7 levels below us.. You give that mob thats 7 levels lower 500 more HP, and leave the rest of its stats alone, and it'll still easily kill a level 12 character that only relies on melee. Consider this, you give a pure melee level 5 character a good size HP buff with no other buffs or regeneration. 500hp should be more than enough. Is he then going to be able to kill a level 12 mob? I didnt think so, because he wont be able to hit it like the level 5 mobs can hit a level 12 player. Im sure the response will be that he doesnt have the skills, and thats preventing him from being able to do it, but why then do the mobs have the skills to do the job when the situation is reversed? The math doesnt add up, so by that virtue alone, the system isnt right yet.. In live, it worked both ways.. Here, it doesnt.

[km2783]

Originally Posted by Ruinous [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've noticed that the maximum damage that all classes seem to be doing at these levels is simply their weapon damage x 2. 5dmg 30dly weapon hits for 10, 6dmg 32dly weapon hits for 12, etc. This is constant for all classes regardless of STR. A caster with a pathetic STR of 60 is doing the same as a melee class with 40-50 more STR. There's something amiss here people!

Strength doesn't come into play until lvl 20 iirc.

until lvl 20 the most you will hit with ANY weapon is 29. I believe there is a cap until 10 or so that limits it to 18-20.

This could also have something to do with what we're seeing here. Is strength not doing anything to add to people's attack rating? is it possible that strength is supposed to add to attack rating until 20, when it also adds additional damage? i'm not entirely sure how the combat mechanic works with strength, ie if it ever does both, or if by increasing attack rating it by default adds damage due to the higher attack number.

[Morndenkainen]

Yoite, No, they dont, if they did, they wouldnt be able to kill anything before getting killed...

Ruinous, Some of its level based.. I noticed once I hit level 12, I was able to crit, AND the damage went up from 20/hit to 24/hit... Also, in going up to 13, the kick damage went from 6 to 8...

Damage caps seem to be level based, so far... But the reality of the situation is that a level 1 hits about as often against a level 1 mob, as a level 12 does against a level 5 mob... There's something wrong with the hit/miss formula that does not scale correctly.

[Morndenkainen]

President, a 35% miss rate could be expected with a level 12 character fighting against a level 12 mob, however, when your skills and ATK exceed the skills and AC of a MUCH lower level, or untwinked mob, you should be hitting them more often, and doing full damage more often, that is simply not the case here.

Do you not understand this concept? A mob of the equivalent level should be more difficult to hit, than a mob that's 7 levels below you. At that point, you outclass that mob by 35 points in the skill, which SHOULD grant some kind of bonus to hit the damn thing. Which is why, in LIVE EQ, in 1999, I was able to successfully solo a warrior to level 23 before HAVING to group just to progress. Otherwise, why is it that you are level 5, you cant solo a level 12 mob? You cant even hit the thing and you get assraped... Face it, something isnt right with the system the way its setup. Mathematical equations are supposed to work from both ends.

In this case, 5X = 25 should also mean that 25/X = 5.. That equation goes both ways, However, the way the thing is currently set up, it looks more like 25/X = (Z) any random number you feel like putting there. Mathematically, the hit/miss soloution simply does not track correctly, and since the results are wrong, the method used to compute the results must be wrong. It has to be wrong, because it is NOT consistent. The only thing that makes me more likely to beat a lower level enemy at this point is simply the number of hitpoints I have, or wether I have the doge/parry skill that I did not used to have at level 5 when I first started killing these gnolls. 7 levels later, they can still do significant damage before they die, simply on account of the number of times that I miss them. Skills aside, if you take away 7 levels worth of HP and leave the skills/abilites at level 12 levels, I'd still be at risk of dying while fighting them simply because I cant hit them.

Im sorry math and logic isnt your strongest point with regards to this issue, but the fact remains that mathematically, the system just doesnt add up correctly like it did in live. Here's a challenge directly to your line of logic... Find some pics or data from live that prove ME wrong, since the mathematical aspect alone should be more than enough to prove me right... I mean hell, just as a joke, the GM's should spawn a decaying skeleton with 5000 hp and let a pure melee level 50 char with no buffs or stat boosting gear (just FS or bronze armor, and a FS or bronze weapons of choice and with all relevant weapon skills/stats at max) fight it just to count the hits/misses. That alone should prove my point. The skeleton will hit way too often, and the player will probably miss often enough to get killed.

[Morndenkainen]

On second thought, would any dev or GM take this seriously enough to test it and post the results just to see if im right about melee being broken all the way to the top of the level bracket??

Spawn a level 1 decaying skeleton with 5000 hp and let a pure melee level 50 char with no buffs or stat boosting gear (cloth armor and rusty weapons) fight it just to count the hits/misses. and only level 1 skills allowed. No dual weild, no double attack, no level 50 kick, riposte, bash, disarm, ect... That alone should prove my point. The skeleton will hit way too often, and the player will probably miss often enough to get killed. Yeah, I know the fight will take forever, but that will give you plenty of time to generate an accurate hit/miss ratio. Im sure we can all agree that the miss rate for the level 50 attacking the level 1 should be 5% or less, and the skelly trying to hit the level 50, should be missing atleast 95% of the time.

Then, reduce the char level by 10, and the skelly HP by 1000, rinse and repeat, to find out exactly where the chain is broken from. Im sure at some point, you will see a HUGE spike in the miss rate, and that itself should tell you what's broken and where.. I know its work, but isnt everything?