Bow damage formula?

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by TytosOfEight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately, you forgot to account for the proc damage from the Gleed bow. I remember using it with a rusty halberd, killing the 3 blue Barbs in Perma at 51ish, and that thing would proc 15-16 times per fight. It was doing more than 1/3 total damage, and sometimes up to half my bow damage. It will use fewer arrows. Unhasted it will proc more too. It's great because the damage the output is the same for rooted vs. unrooted mobs, because the proc works regardless.

Good point. At 34% haste you'll have 11.5 Earthshaker swings per minute or 19.6 Swarmcaller swings per minute. If your dex gives you 1.5 procs/minute that's a 13% proc chance per swing on the Earthshaker and a 7.6% proc chance on the Swamcaller. Multiplying those percentages by the proc damage of 81 gives an expected proc damage per arrow of 10.5 or 6.2 respectively. A pretty considerable contribution when the modal damage is 69 or 51, respectively.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. It was I who showed that Archery has it's damage divided by 2 and it has a global damage modifier in the EQEMU code. Not yourself.

It's been common knowledge for years that archery damage isn't doubled like melee is.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do we have a formula for max damage?

I wanted to try parsing str vs dex to see how that works out. I don't have dex gear but figured if DPS/max hit does or doesn't go down after removing a bunch of str gear then we'll know. If it doesn't I'll remove dex gear. Still new to parsers so I'll have to figure out how to extract the log of individual hits.

I did some testing against Bloodmaw the other day. 15 stacks each with four different str/dex combinations. Huntsman, Tolan's, and mainhand was always a 1her. I think max damage and the impact of str/dex is going to require much larger sample sizes, unfortunately; I don't think the measured max hits here are the true max hits and I don't see anything conclusive in these results.

I don't think I have the patience to repeat the experiment with 30 or 40 stacks of arrows but I might rerun against a blue con like a frost giant elite or something. If you want to do some parsing either DSM or I can help with the analysis, but personally I've found the most convenient way to do it is with Unix utilities, which I think you can install on windows.

The command I use to isolate the damages looks like this:

grep "You hit Bloodmaw" log_file| awk '{print $10}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -k2

Where log_file is whatever you named the file with the fights you want to analyze.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's been common knowledge for years that archery damage isn't doubled like melee is.

If something is common knowledge, then kindly link to the wiki page or thread you got it from next time. My point was that myself and TytosOfEight provided the source/data that backed up our conclusions.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did some testing against Bloodmaw the other day. 15 stacks each with four different str/dex combinations. Huntsman, Tolan's, and mainhand was always a 1her. I think max damage and the impact of str/dex is going to require much larger sample sizes, unfortunately; I don't think the measured max hits here are the true max hits and I don't see anything conclusive in these results.

Thanks for the data. I would like some more details please. Did you have any ATK buffs on, and are you including double damage hits in your dataset?

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If something is common knowledge, then kindly link to the wiki page or thread you got it from next time. My point was that myself and TytosOfEight provided the source/data that backed up our conclusions.

Have you read the Archery wiki page?

And from the first page of this thread:

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For comparing bows I do the damage + arrow + damage bonus / delay.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Without a better formula I guess (damage + arrow + damage bonus)/delay will have to do.

My first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that both bows have the same damage value is too bad, but it does look like the MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage calculation does predict the modal value pretty well. I'm guessing (MH bonus + bow damage + arrow damage) / delay is gonna work about as well as a rule of thumb as (2x damage + MH bonus) / delay does for mainhand melee.

And here's another post from almost two years ago:

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They already do. Bow base damage just isn't multiplied by 2 like it is for normal weapons, it's juts bow dmg + arrow damage, which makes it significantly weaker.

The only thing new in this thread is that there's a weird +1 in there, which is pretty insignificant all things considered.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the data. I would like some more details please. Did you have any ATK buffs on, and are you including double damage hits in your dataset?

Only buff was Greater Wolf Form, plus sometimes Storm Strength as needed. And of course there's no double damage hits, since I have to keep the mob rooted in order to shoot at range.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have you read the Archery wiki page

Thank you for providing sources instead of insults! Make this a habit, and conversations will be smoother. The wiki is often innacurate, but at least we know where you are coming from as a starting point.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Only buff was Greater Wolf Form, plus sometimes Storm Strength as needed. And of course there's no double damage hits, since I have to keep the mob rooted in order to shoot at range.

Thank you. It's good to provide all of the details you can in every test, instead of assuming people know the details. Snaggles had some good, descriptive posts. Here's one example:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=328

[bcbrown]

I realized I forgot to filter out crit hits from the max hits column. Not gonna re-upload the chart, but here's str, dex, max hit.

239  144   74
162  144   67
196  89    71
197  153   71

Seems clear to me that the max hit calculation uses str, not dex. It doesn't look like the formula Goregasmic posted fits, though. My archery skill is 238 and offense is 245, btw.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah DSM said EQEMU has a line using melee damage formula with dex swapped in but he also said they might not use it as is.

Since strength seems to have an impact there's probably a modifier applied to something like weapon+arrow damage

Melee max hit is most likely not the right formula since it is mod x weap damage + dmg bonus.

In this case it would be mod x 23 (huntsman and tolan) +11

So (74--11)/23 = 2.74 mod.

That would mean you'd have to add 35 to 239 before dividing by 100 to get your 2.74 mod. Doesn't make much sense.

[Snaggles]

I’ve always understood STR to be essentially archery attack despite DEX raising attack power with the BFG equipped in the main hand (a visual glitch as it’s been explained). That said, capping STR is easy with the right gear and a Focus where DEX is typically a bit behind.

I try to get DEX capped when I think I’ll Disc just to increase crit chances if nothing else.

In general, with moderate gear (or even solid) you can’t end up with a ton of STR, DEX, hps and MR so a cut has to happen. The obvious choice for me outside WIS is DEX.

I’d be curious for anyone wanting to parse the two stats, or a combination of them. If you plan to index finger your way to 60 it seems a worthwhile understanding. I still think maximizing damage per shot and getting a shaker for more procs and damage bonus is more reliable though. That and maybe crafting a macro to summon 4-6 stacks of arrows with /pause built in so you can shake a martini while the Tolan bracer is glowing. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[TytosOfEight]

Are you all testing this with max str? Because str increases atk, so even if bow damage relied on dex it would still increase with + atk. You need to max str and then test the difference between something like 100 dex vs. 200 dex, adjusting for crits.

[Jimjam]

HAHA! I love when people don't know how to play Rangers! Why do you think their symbol is a BOW AND QUIVER?!?!?! I have a VERY low level Ranger, he's got a higher skill in Archery than in 1HS (main weap). I have a 18 in Fletching, and I have about 100 arrows with me at all times. People seem to like to SoW low level chars running from things they accidently hit, so I have a lot of chances to kite. That's a solo Ranger's main advantage: he can be faster than the MOb trying to kill him. What you are obviously doing wrong is have only ONE stack of arrows as well as NOT kiting. Also, the main reason you need a bow and arrow is that you AREN'T a melee class. You AREN'T. You use your bow as your protection in combat. The MOb shouldn't come running at you, it should be coming at a warrior.

All you have to do is root, snare, Flame Lick, shoot. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot... I currently do 11 damage with my bow despite a skill of 8 in Archery and a bow with 50/10.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

HAHA! I love when people don't know how to play Rangers! Why do you think their symbol is a BOW AND QUIVER?!?!?! I have a VERY low level Ranger, he's got a higher skill in Archery than in 1HS (main weap). I have a 18 in Fletching, and I have about 100 arrows with me at all times. People seem to like to SoW low level chars running from things they accidently hit, so I have a lot of chances to kite. That's a solo Ranger's main advantage: he can be faster than the MOb trying to kill him. What you are obviously doing wrong is have only ONE stack of arrows as well as NOT kiting. Also, the main reason you need a bow and arrow is that you AREN'T a melee class. You AREN'T. You use your bow as your protection in combat. The MOb shouldn't come running at you, it should be coming at a warrior.

All you have to do is root, snare, Flame Lick, shoot. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot... I currently do 11 damage with my bow despite a skill of 8 in Archery and a bow with 50/10.

This broke my brain until I realized you were quoting some rando dummy on ZAM, lol.