What if you don't want to be an Evil Shaman?

[Foxplay]

YoloTorporLoL Don'tCare

Yup pretty much describes ogre torpor shaman gameplay perfectly

[loramin]

Originally Posted by SiouxNation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin should really take the time to put together an official good guy shaman guide.

Someday I might write an actual guide, but for now the next best thing is to go to http://wiki.project1999.com/Per-Level_Hunting_Guide and click the "Shaman" filter at the top.

It's not quite a guide because it gives you options instead of saying "go here at level X, then go here at level Y", and also the Shaman-recommended places don't start until level 20. But if you're a Barbarian Shaman I guarantee you can find a leveling path there because I wrote the guide as I was leveling Loramin, so it contains all the places I used.

Originally Posted by clevergirl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Gear is important to shamans, but barbarian shamans start with a pretty high wisdom. And that stat matters the most! <3

Actually, the conventional wisdom is that Stamina > Wisdom. Wisdom only gives a Shaman mana, but Stamina gives a Shaman HP, which keeps them alive and can be converted to mana using Cannibalize.

But Wisdom is certainly handy too (and better than Stamina for tradeskills, if you're into that sort of thing): Barbarian pride!

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do know shaman can convert mana into hp (and other effects!) too, Lora? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Indeed, that's very true ... when you have time and things are going smoothly. But here's the thing: higher stats don't matter the 95-99% of the time that things are going smoothly. The only time higher max stats do matter is when the shit hits the fan, and when it does a little extra HP can mean being able to run for your life. A little extra mana with no HP just means you die.

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Wiki debunks this.

It's actually Wisdom > Stamina.

The wiki does no such thing. What the wiki actually says is:

For pure Mana consideration, a higher WIS *dramatically* beats out over a higher STA

(Emphasis mine.) And that's true: for pure max mana Wisdom is clearly better.

But again, it's not about how the numbers crunch under ideal situations. Under ideal situations a Shaman with 150 Wisdom or Stamina is functionally identical to a Shaman with 250 Wisdom or Stamina. The only time higher max stats matter in EQ is when they give you a buffer, like when you accidentally pull two mobs instead of one and the extra HP from higher Stamina gives you a buffer that lets you survive.

Originally Posted by SiouxNation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can max stamina via buffs. No meaningful wisdom buffs exist

No meaningful wisdom buffs? Enlightenment gives 22, and Form of the Great Bear gives another 10. Now of course Riotous Health gives 50 Stamina, but still 32 Wisdom is far from meaningless.

Personally self-buffed I have 225 Wisdom and 223 Stamina. I've played here for four years and I've raided (though not at the A/A level). You can see my gear in my Magelo (link in signature): it's not terrible, but it's certianly not maxxed either.

If you're in Aftermath or Tempest or whatever and/or if you're getting raid buffed then sure, maxing Stamina (and probably Wisdom too) isn't that hard. But non-top-tier raiders won't be hitting their maxes when soloing/grouping for a long time ... if ever.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only time higher max stats matter in EQ is when they give you a buffer, like when you accidentally pull two mobs instead of one and the extra HP from higher Stamina gives you a buffer that lets you survive.

I love this comment as max hp and max mana are such misunderstood stats from a functional standpoint.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That comes from a page on the wiki specifically about the WIS vs STA debate.

The end result is in big red font that WIS is dramatically better than STA.

So again, the wiki debunks your theory.

Look Dino I like your posts in general, but I feel like the big red letters on that page are getting in the way of your basic reading comprehension here. Try to look past them and understand that the wiki "debunks" nothing about what I've said.

Wisdom = more mana than Stamina. Everyone agrees on this, including both myself and the author of that wiki page. And it's good to have both more Stamina and more Wisdom if you can. Again, everyone agrees with this: I don't think anyone is saying to max your Stamina and leave your Wisdom at 120, or vice versa.

But when you are deciding whether to get a little more Stamina or a little more Wisdom (either at creation or when choosing items), "more mana" is not the only thing that decides whether a stat is better or not. All that wiki page says is that Wisdom gives more mana than Stamina; it says nothing about whether mana is better than HP, ie. whether being able to cast one more spell is worth a greater chance of not being alive to cast that spell.

To actually decide which stat is better you have to decide (as the wiser people in this thread have noted) which do you want just a little bit more of when things go wrong? Not which stat is better in an abstract sense, not which one gives you the bigger number to brag about, but which stat is it better to have a little bit more of in situations when you have more mobs than you expect, or accidentally agro a mob after you've just finished a fight, or something like that.

Even then it's subjective: no one can prove that HP or Mana is categorically better than the other because they are both useful. But personally I'd rather be alive and able to drink a healing potion, or click a WC cap, or run a away a bit so I can cannibalize for some mana, or drop down off an edge so the mobs take a moment to run to me (so I can med or cann and then gate out), or run to the zone line, etc., than have the mana for an extra root but be dead and not be able to do any of those things.

If someone thinks they already have enough HP to stay alive in bad situations, and focuses on mana instead, I certainly can't prove them wrong, because I can't predict exactly how many HP you'll need to stay alive in every possible shitty situation. But on average I think having a bit more HP in a crunch is better than having a bit more mana, and for what it's worth the vast, vast majority of Shaman in the classic era agreed*.


* Although as we all know, people in classic weren't always right about things, so take that with the necessary grains of salt.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Drop it.

You're wrong.

That's a good, rational argument, which totally supports your opinion with solid evidence.

Glad we had this talk.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by SiouxNation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't understand the thinking that higher stats mean nothing. With higher Stam/Wis I can take on mobs that are higher level, hit harder, I can cast more nukes/dots allowing me to kill faster.

Assuming we're all fighting blue mobs that we have no problem with then I would agree. While leveling I do not always go that route, sure once you're 50+ it makes sense but you should clarify that instead of stating it is always the case that higher stats don't mean anything unless you pull two mobs.

An extra 100 hp is completely meaningless unless you dip below 100 hp during a fight. Similarly an extra 100 mana is meaningless unless you dip below 100 mana during a fight. These marginal increases to a large pool are pretty insignificant.

The question is really which of these largely insignificant is more likely to save your life? I am not very good at this game so I know the answer for me would be hp.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have access to all my evidence that proves me correct.

You just choose to plug your ears and not listen.

You can dream up all the mental gymnastics you want, but you are still wrong.

Get over it.

Ok first off, calm down: this is a discussion about micro-optimizing stats on a 19-year old elf simulator: I'm not plugging my ears or doing mental gymnastics, I'm stating an opinion and backing it up. That's generally how discussions work: one person states an opinion with evidence, another states a contrary opinion with counter-evidence, the first admits the other's evidence is convincing, or else they present their own counter-evidence, and so on. Clearly our evidence hasn't convinced each other yet.

Second, I'm happy to stop here; this isn't a Lincoln-Douglass debate, it's a discussion on which item someone might want to buy next, and I certainly think I've explained my take sufficiently. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because saying "BUT MY OPINION IS IN BIG RED TEXT ON A FAN-EDITED WIKI" isn't going to be the evidence that convinces me.

[clevergirl]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd play a Troll Shaman but they look like they have a full diaper.

I can't take myself seriously if I have a dirty diaper

Bearform! Win.

[Rathiel72]

Originally Posted by DinoTriz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd play a Troll Shaman but they look like they have a full diaper.

I can't take myself seriously if I have a dirty diaper

ROFLMAO!