Awakened 30 day

[Argh]

Suspension length is definitely the result of a grand GM conspiracy to reduce the population on blue, and has nothing to do with this being Awakened's 10th suspension.

[Skew]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Suspension length is definitely the result of a grand GM conspiracy to reduce the population on blue, and has nothing to do with this being Awakened's 10th suspension.

No one in AA wants to go to Sirken about anything. The petitons must be at an all time low so he decides to up the punishment [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.][You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.][You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] weird logic when he always said for guilds to work things out themselves.

AA must have competed on >2000 mobs in the last 2 years. The odd train is going to happen. Theyre not intentional and mostly get dealt with before involving staff - did CSG actually petition this?

[Swiftyfist]

But yeah! petition away! that gets said guild more loot in the long run, why not work it out? oh i get it now.

[icedwards]

bummer

wts lodi map loot rights and other lodi accessories

[zodium]

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[Csihar]

This just seems like part of the and toxic vibe (and to a lesser degree toxic personalities) on parts of the server. That entire raid moment was filled with unnecessary aggression from a lot of parties. I doubt any proper personal communication was had (correct me if I'm wrong) while the communication that definitely did happen was public and antagonizing. Ban seems excessive and/or potentially unnecessary so I do empathize with Awakened but I wonder if it could have been avoided through some healthy communication. Though I guess it depends on whether or not that communication did in fact take place and why the ban happened.

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Csihar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This just seems like part of the and toxic vibe (and to a lesser degree toxic personalities) on parts of the server. That entire raid moment was filled with unnecessary aggression from a lot of parties. I doubt any proper personal communication was had (correct me if I'm wrong) while the communication that definitely did happen was public and antagonizing. Ban seems excessive and/or potentially unnecessary so I do empathize with Awakened but I wonder if it could have been avoided through some healthy communication. Though I guess it depends on whether or not that communication did in fact take place and why the ban happened.

healthy communication with someone who cannot admit fault is a nonstarter

[Csihar]

Trying to look at the situation objectively and I wonder about certain things.

1) CSG is getting blamed for Awakened getting a 30 day ban. But is CSG responsible for a 30 day ban or just a ban? With the 30 days being a culmination of previous bans and CSG only being responsible for 10 or so days.

2) If you look at the situation in the following way:

- Awakened accidentally trained CSG
- CSG didn't communicate that they felt it was worth petitioning over but just did

Conclusion: CSG was wrong.

But I don't think you can look at this as an isolated incident and I think more facts are relevant.

Despite it being an accident (which I accept is the case), should Feshlak have been pulled while Eashen was being engaged? I've read the explanation of why the train happened in the way that it did but to me that doesn't explain why the situation that could potentially cause a train was initiated to begin with.

I understand that Aftermath and Awakened do it this way. There's a rivalry but you guys want each other there because the competition excites you. Try to get every mob every week and if someone trains, it's just part of the game A/A plays. You conceed, you make some deals and win some, lose some and next week another game starts. Perhaps this is an incorrect way of looking at it, correct me if so.

But neither guild plays that game with any other guilds. And it seems like both guilds are so used to playing this game that they see it as a given. This is just the way things are (despite actively creating that particular way themselves). So another guild comes in, makes a clean pull and Awakened goes off to pull another raid mob right away, which could potentially train the other guild. And why? Was it their first shot in 7 months at that highly contested mob that drops an epic piece for a person whose main still needs it after 2 years? No, it was just another one of the ToV mobs Awakened kills again and again.
It ends up wiping CSG? Due to an accident? Sure. But an accident that occured because of 'competition!!!' ?. Also true. Well, no biggie. Just let CSG know through /ooc "we conceed." Situation resolved.

That works well when it's one mob and two guilds. We wipe you guys? Well, we conceed, and the other guild gets an uncontested kill of the target they were after. That actually helps the guild you wiped.
But in ToV with that amount of people it doesn't really work the same.
CSG wasn't going after Feshlak so how does conceeding that mob help in any way?
CSG had a clean kill going for Eashen and then gets trained twice, which jeopardized their shot at getting Eashen.
Conceeding Feshlak served nothing more than to do away with a fuck-up by means of a technicality. It also sets a certain precedent. It was mentioned that people should just start training the shit out of other guilds whenever they're killing something and then just say "we conceed". It's a magical get out of jail free card.
Guild A and B compete. Guild A throws guild C some loot and in return guild C trains guild B whenever A and B are competing. And then Guild C just conceeds. Problem solved.

What more could have been done? That's a question that was asked multiple times but never directly answered. First of all, nothing was done. Not for CSG. Conceeding Feshlak was 100% self-serving.
Send nudes, sing apology songs in their particular native language ('cause lol: they Euros)... yes. Perhaps someone in Awakened should have taken the time to send a tell and explain the situation. Apologize and see if after the night was done they could discuss something by means of making up for the wipe and potential loss of a raid boss. Because (again) conceeding didn't do anything at all for CSG.

It wasn't up to CSG to communicate, it was up to Awakened. CSG communication would require them to do more than they should have, which I will address in a moment.

But that patronizing /ooc wasn't the only communication. Other communication from AW followed and boiled down to "leave A/A be to complete and fuck off casuals". Aftermath as well.

And this is not an isolated incident, it's part of the entire raid scene. A raid scene that is currently shaped by A/A. I can't speak on it as I haven't been privy to those conversations but several CSG members asserted that guild communication with Awakened and Aftermath have often boiled down to "learn to petition". I also haven't seen anyone denying this. But it seems to me to be an important aspect of it.

So then I look at the situation as follows:

- CSG was simply killing a raid mob, got fucked over and ... nothing.
- Awakened plays their A/A raiding game, fucks another guild in the process and conceeds. Damnit, that's a loss for us and a win for Awakened. But we'll get 'em next week! Oh, CSG? The rules state we just need to conceed and our training is no longer an issue.
- Awakened thought they were jailfree because of a technicality, not for setting things right.
- No proper communication from Awakened.
- Bunch of people who didn't want to be a part of the A/A game.
- Bunch of people who were tired of being told to learn to petition petitioned.
- Awakened gets banned. It's 30 days (which really sucks and I don't enjoy it personally) but I'd say CSG gave you guys 10 days and the previous bans added the 20.

[Ruhtar]

Originally Posted by Csihar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Trying to look at the situation objectively and I wonder about certain things.

1) CSG is getting blamed for Awakened getting a 30 day ban. But is CSG responsible for a 30 day ban or just a ban? With the 30 days being a culmination of previous bans and CSG only being responsible for 10 or so days.

2) If you look at the situation in the following way:

- Awakened accidentally trained CSG
- CSG didn't communicate that they felt it was worth petitioning over but just did

Conclusion: CSG was wrong.

But I don't think you can look at this as an isolated incident and I think more facts are relevant.

Despite it being an accident (which I accept is the case), should Feshlak have been pulled while Eashen was being engaged? I've read the explanation of why the train happened in the way that it did but to me that doesn't explain why the situation that could potentially cause a train was initiated to begin with.

I understand that Aftermath and Awakened do it this way. There's a rivalry but you guys want each other there because the competition excites you. Try to get every mob every week and if someone trains, it's just part of the game A/A plays. You conceed, you make some deals and win some, lose some and next week another game starts. Perhaps this is an incorrect way of looking at it, correct me if so.

But neither guild plays that game with any other guilds. And it seems like both guilds are so used to playing this game that they see it as a given. This is just the way things are (despite actively creating that particular way themselves). So another guild comes in, makes a clean pull and Awakened goes off to pull another raid mob right away, which could potentially train the other guild. And why? Was it their first shot in 7 months at that highly contested mob that drops an epic piece for a person whose main still needs it after 2 years? No, it was just another one of the ToV mobs Awakened kills again and again.
It ends up wiping CSG? Due to an accident? Sure. But an accident that occured because of 'competition!!!' ?. Also true. Well, no biggie. Just let CSG know through /ooc "we conceed." Situation resolved.

That works well when it's one mob and two guilds. We wipe you guys? Well, we conceed, and the other guild gets an uncontested kill of the target they were after. That actually helps the guild you wiped.
But in ToV with that amount of people it doesn't really work the same.
CSG wasn't going after Feshlak so how does conceeding that mob help in any way?
CSG had a clean kill going for Eashen and then gets trained twice, which jeopardized their shot at getting Eashen.
Conceeding Feshlak served nothing more than to do away with a fuck-up by means of a technicality. It also sets a certain precedent. It was mentioned that people should just start training the shit out of other guilds whenever they're killing something and then just say "we conceed". It's a magical get out of jail free card.
Guild A and B compete. Guild A throws guild C some loot and in return guild C trains guild B whenever A and B are competing. And then Guild C just conceeds. Problem solved.

What more could have been done? That's a question that was asked multiple times but never directly answered. First of all, nothing was done. Not for CSG. Conceeding Feshlak was 100% self-serving.
Send nudes, sing apology songs in their particular native language ('cause lol: they Euros)... yes. Perhaps someone in Awakened should have taken the time to send a tell and explain the situation. Apologize and see if after the night was done they could discuss something by means of making up for the wipe and potential loss of a raid boss. Because (again) conceeding didn't do anything at all for CSG.

It wasn't up to CSG to communicate, it was up to Awakened. CSG communication would require them to do more than they should have, which I will address in a moment.

But that patronizing /ooc wasn't the only communication. Other communication from AW followed and boiled down to "leave A/A be to complete and fuck off casuals". Aftermath as well.

And this is not an isolated incident, it's part of the entire raid scene. A raid scene that is currently shaped by A/A. I can't speak on it as I haven't been privy to those conversations but several CSG members asserted that guild communication with Awakened and Aftermath have often boiled down to "learn to petition". I also haven't seen anyone denying this. But it seems to me to be an important aspect of it.

So then I look at the situation as follows:

- CSG was simply killing a raid mob, got fucked over and ... nothing.
- Awakened plays their A/A raiding game, fucks another guild in the process and conceeds. Damnit, that's a loss for us and a win for Awakened. But we'll get 'em next week! Oh, CSG? The rules state we just need to conceed and our training is no longer an issue.
- Awakened thought they were jailfree because of a technicality, not for setting things right.
- No proper communication from Awakened.
- Bunch of people who didn't want to be a part of the A/A game.
- Bunch of people who were tired of being told to learn to petition petitioned.
- Awakened gets banned. It's 30 days (which really sucks and I don't enjoy it personally) but I'd say CSG gave you guys 10 days and the previous bans added the 20.

This is the correct outlook on the situation. However, this being RnF and all, it'll fall on blind eyes.

RnF isn't used to actually work through problems. Its sole purpose is to shitpost and Awakened has shown up in spades.

[Csihar]

Originally Posted by Ruhtar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the correct outlook on the situation. However, this being RnF and all, it'll fall on blind eyes.

RnF isn't used to actually work through problems. Its sole purpose is to shitpost and Awakened has shown up in spades.

I know but worth a try. Not even saying I'm necessarily right.

Shame no edit because

"Damnit, that's a loss for us and a win for Awakened"

Should have been "Aftermath" instead of "Awakened". Don't make no sense now.

Ah well.