Can the "list holder" at AC OOT camp remove people for no reason?

[SoekiWiz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion... so I'm going to attempt to contribute without adding fuel to the fire.

Let's just say many people seem to be confusing "rules" with "courtesy" or "expectation" or "tradition" or any other word we can bust out of the thesaurus.

Here's my recommendation on what you want to remember (take it or leave it) - at the end of the day, if it comes down to involving the GM staff it also means involving their perspective, personal attitude/feeling toward the situation. We can shade in any number of grey areas and contestable points.

Summary: Try not to be a dickhead, but also don't be a doormat.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

blah blah blah blah blah...

All bullshit here. ^

[Lhancelot]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9


What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

I wouldn't put much stock into things posted by Derubael, but this pretty much confirms everything I said.

[Sirban]

LOL

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9


What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

The problem, unfortunately, is that its rarely clear cut.

These rules only really work smoothly when both parties (the current camp holder and the potential next camp holder) are already willing to work in good faith with one another. Of course, if both parties are already willing to work in good faith with one another they would have been able to resolve the camp ownership on their own without any CSR rules in the first place.

AC is a great example:
1. Every time the named spawns he drops the ring. There is no trust required to know whether the camped item dropped. (Not so at every camp---FBSS, for example).

2. The sought after item is LORE. (Again, not so at every camp.)

3. The item is extremely desirable and easily attained by a moderately geared mid lvl player.

4. It is a very fast spawn time on the PH in a relatively remote zone. A real player "next on the list" has no chance of getting there before the next spawn time or before the ph has been up for more than two minutes (see Derubael's post) unless...

The only four ways this hand off could happen "in time" to prevent a fumble:
1) The player is bound in OOT and gates immediately for the next ph.
2) The player is actually physically there and ready for the hand off.
3) The handing off player delays the kill (i.e. keeps the AC charmed, CCd, at 1%, etc.) while the receiving player runs to camp.
4) The receiving player is camped at the site. They may be on an alt or not online at all, but they are logging into their toon camped in OOT for the handoff.

Options 3 and 4 are sketchy to me, but don't seem to overtly break any of Derubael's rules. Option 3 seems unreasonable and option 4 requires enough trust between the players that the receiving toon isn't an alt camped there by the current camp holder to double camp the item.

If you decided to camp the AC a few times (I've probably done it six times since launch here) you are going to run into farmers and scammers. Most of the time I've done it I've met good people who sometimes even chit chat while we wait. I've routinely been trained by folks to see if I've fallen asleep or are truly afk when I camp on a toon that can't FD. I've had people try to cut in line. I've had people try to KS. I've had people make up stories about the game bugged and it didn't drop the ring. Sometimes you get good trustworthy folks sometimes you get jerkbags.

Bottom line: imo, the nonsense and timesink of obtaining are part of EQ. There are workarounds to avoid it if you wanted to take them. EQ lets people be jerks or helpful to each other, you get to choose which you will be...but you can't choose for other people. No rules or GM intervention is gonna fix that, and it wouldn't be EQ if they did.

[Trungep99]

People ask to be on my list, I say sure. When I'm done 50% of time I usually camp and forget to send a tell

[Xaanka]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9


What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem, unfortunately, is that its rarely clear cut.

These rules only really work smoothly when both parties (the current camp holder and the potential next camp holder) are already willing to work in good faith with one another. Of course, if both parties are already willing to work in good faith with one another they would have been able to resolve the camp ownership on their own without any CSR rules in the first place.

AC is a great example:
1. Every time the named spawns he drops the ring. There is no trust required to know whether the camped item dropped. (Not so at every camp---FBSS, for example).

2. The sought after item is LORE. (Again, not so at every camp.)

3. The item is extremely desirable and easily attained by a moderately geared mid lvl player.

4. It is a very fast spawn time on the PH in a relatively remote zone. A real player "next on the list" has no chance of getting there before the next spawn time or before the ph has been up for more than two minutes (see Derubael's post) unless...

The only four ways this hand off could happen "in time" to prevent a fumble:
1) The player is bound in OOT and gates immediately for the next ph.
2) The player is actually physically there and ready for the hand off.
3) The handing off player delays the kill (i.e. keeps the AC charmed, CCd, at 1%, etc.) while the receiving player runs to camp.
4) The receiving player is camped at the site. They may be on an alt or not online at all, but they are logging into their toon camped in OOT for the handoff.

Options 3 and 4 are sketchy to me, but don't seem to overtly break any of Derubael's rules. Option 3 seems unreasonable and option 4 requires enough trust between the players that the receiving toon isn't an alt camped there by the current camp holder to double camp the item.

If you decided to camp the AC a few times (I've probably done it six times since launch here) you are going to run into farmers and scammers. Most of the time I've done it I've met good people who sometimes even chit chat while we wait. I've routinely been trained by folks to see if I've fallen asleep or are truly afk when I camp on a toon that can't FD. I've had people try to cut in line. I've had people try to KS. I've had people make up stories about the game bugged and it didn't drop the ring. Sometimes you get good trustworthy folks sometimes you get jerkbags.

Bottom line: imo, the nonsense and timesink of obtaining are part of EQ. There are workarounds to avoid it if you wanted to take them. EQ lets people be jerks or helpful to each other, you get to choose which you will be...but you can't choose for other people. No rules or GM intervention is gonna fix that, and it wouldn't be EQ if they did.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WOW THANKS
FOR THE
REMINDER YOU
NEED A LAW
DEGREE TO
PLAY ON THE
BLUE SERVER

[Swish2]

I'm not reading all that.

I'd rather win or lose the AC in a duel of pvp skill if the AC is contested... either way it doesn't result in a petition, waiting to see if I get the ring (or get to keep the ring), and simmering in the meantime about how another elf sim player is trying to stitch me up. Also it doesn't waste the staff's time.

[Xaanka]

heres how i got my jboots on red:

- killed some nerd camping AC on a low leve druid, then killed the AC