Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by thufir [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.

Thats like saying if I work 30 hours one week I cant spend the money I earned because I didnt work full time that week. In AG we have no such requirement.

One big problem with random: unless its all greed random, some classes have zero incentive to visit certain zones, since nothing will drop for them.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

What I mean by unbiased is it doesn't favor one particular outcome over another. If you go into a raid with Johnny DKP, Billy Casual Scum and Every Evening Eddie and it's /random, on any particular raid it's not going to favor one raider from the next, as it shouldn't because everyone has an equal contribution to making that particular raid happen. But over time, the Johnny DKP's are going to accrue more loot relative to others, because they're rolling more. On average it'll balance out that the people who show up to say 80% of the raids are going to be sharing 80% of the loot and the 20%ers 20%. The people who work more have more to show for it.

If you go DKP, the outcome of who gets loot is strongly skewed to Johnny DKP. Every Evening Eddie has a little favor, Billy Casual Scum may as well not even bother. Now say Billy Casual Scum rides it out and saves his DKP for that one special item he really, really wants, he's still at a horrible disadvantage as other loot that he might otherwise buy is going to the Johnny DKP's of the guild because he can't afford to spend his points and bid on it because he needs every point he can get for the one thing he wants and at the end of the day it's still no guarantee he won't be outbid. The loot goes disproportionately to the DKP farmers.

[thufir]

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thats like saying if I work 30 hours one week I cant spend the money I earned because I didnt work full time that week. In AG we have no such requirement.

and +1 to AG for not having it. the RA requirement is the biggest silliness with DKP systems. it's just an extra kick in the pants to people who have real lives or other interests.

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One big problem with random: unless its all greed random, some classes have zero incentive to visit certain zones, since nothing will drop for them.

very true, and part of why DKP started being a thing in the first place.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People get salty when they lose DKP bids too. There's no one system that's going to make everyone happy. At least /random is open and transparent.

It's too bad it's more trouble than it's worth to look at the numbers of all of the systems, such as raid attendance % versus loot earned %, member turnover rate, etc.

Blind dkp bidding should be a thing, best way of doing it. Easy to say "1" or "2" and know you're getting it for next to nothing, but if you value it you might go higher [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know for a fact there were a couple of greedy bastards in Europa who in Sky would discourage people from the same class bidding on items. The officers didn't like it, I didn't like it... how dare someone send tells to their class brothers and say "hey dude, I REALLY need this, i've been after it for months - would you mind not bidding?". Wasn't a widespread thing but it did go on.

Hi Patoso, did you gear your 12 characters yet? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know for a fact there were a couple of greedy bastards in Europa who in Sky would discourage people from the same class bidding on items. The officers didn't like it, I didn't like it... how dare someone send tells to their class brothers and say "hey dude, I REALLY need this, i've been after it for months - would you mind not bidding?". Wasn't a widespread thing but it did go on.

This is 100% what I seen in another raid guild on this server regarding /ran rolls on some bottom tier raid quest items/drops. Had it personally happen to me. Either tells wanting to buy my winning roll, or tells discouraging me from rolling on an item for some made up reason by the player trying to explain why I shouldn't be rolling on an item and how they needed it.

After a few circumstances like this, all in one day I then realized how fake some of these guys were. All happy and "GRATS DUDE!!!!! YAY!!!!" in /gu chat but conniving in tells, trying to get more pixels at the detriment of others who fairly won something.

I just get really annoyed with this kind of behavior, and what makes it more ridiculous is these greedy dicks have an army of personal alts that walk around with more gear than the mains of the fringe players who they try to take gears away from.

It aint worth it. Sacrificing dignity and a sense of gaming freedom along with having to suck off guild leadership for pixels is BS, along with all the behind the scenes drama that goes on in tells from these greedy pricks.

I am sure there are some decent raid guilds, I just never seen one yet on this server. At this point no matter how loot is handled, I think as people have pointed out there are pros and cons to all the different systems of loot management. There's just no perfect way to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and equally, but I do think the /ran idea is as close to it as possible.

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Blind dkp bidding should be a thing, best way of doing it. Easy to say "1" or "2" and know you're getting it for next to nothing, but if you value it you might go higher [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Blind dkp bidding is how we do it in AG, winner pays second place +1.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Blind dkp bidding is how we do it in AG, winner pays second place +1.

Oh, that kinda neat ^^

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh, that kinda neat ^^

Its great; our loot system is the best ive seen for casual players. I dont want to derail this thread but if anyone is interested in more info send me a tell or pm.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No system is perfect, but DKP bidding seems the most popular because it boils it down to a simple currency game. The more you raid, the more DKP you have to spend........The problem with /random, in my opinion, is there's no incentive for people to attend raids that aren't likely to drop something they can use.

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency. Likewise, trying to coerce people into showing up for events they don't want to go to strikes me as a lousy way to run something that's supposed to be fun.

I'll stick with guilds that /random or merit things out and keep the game--a game. Nothing against folks who're okay with the currency system, but it isn't for me.

Danth

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency...

At this point its worth taking a step back and remembering that it's good to have friends in your guild, to enjoy the time you play with them while raiding and so on. If raiding feels like a chore, and you don't like talking to those people, perhaps consider moving guilds <3