Monks - The second best tank in the game?

[Sage Truthbearer]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monk aggro should never be an issue in a small group setting unless you have a rogue with you who doesnt know how to evade.

Tstaff would fix most aggro issues tho even if you are around bad group mates

Yeah, but you have to remember that the average person who plays P99 is joining pick-up groups filled with random strangers of varying skill levels who leave the group every 30 minutes and get replaced by a new stranger. It's a roll of the dice if any of these people know how to manage their aggro correctly. Some are great, some are horrible.

I leveled a Paladin 1-60 mostly in PuGs, and having snap aggro is not only incredibly useful but almost necessary for making these kinds of groups run efficiently. Yeah, Monks can mitigate incoming damage way better than me but for group content that gets steamrolled anyway, mitigation doesn't matter as much as being able to quickly and reliably generate aggro.

[Trungep99]

Monks don't have taunt or snap agro. So that can prevent you from holding a mob on you

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Sage Truthbearer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, but you have to remember that the average person who plays P99 is joining pick-up groups filled with random strangers of varying skill levels who leave the group every 30 minutes and get replaced by a new stranger. It's a roll of the dice if any of these people know how to manage their aggro correctly. Some are great, some are horrible.

I leveled a Paladin 1-60 mostly in PuGs, and having snap aggro is not only incredibly useful but almost necessary for making these kinds of groups run efficiently. Yeah, Monks can mitigate incoming damage way better than me but for group content that gets steamrolled anyway, mitigation doesn't matter as much as being able to quickly and reliably generate aggro.

This is a good point. You'd think having root in group, and most classes having ways to manage aggro would be enough to make aggro management moot for any class, but no.

[Detoxx]

Heres a few Parses:

/GU Velketor the Sorcerer in 229s, 68k @297sdps --- Detoxx 26k @115sdps --- Eliashib 12k @53sdps --- Monnkey 10k @45sdps --- Legday 8k @35sdps --- Metalopolis 8k @34sdps --- Bitie 2k @10sdps --- Jasekab 0k @2sdps --- Jonwayne 0k @2sdps --- Xobekn 0k @1sdps --- Angelice 0k @0sdps

/GU Eashen of the Sky in 135s, 161k @1194sdps --- Detoxx 15k @111sdps --- Digler 13k @93sdps --- Skew 9k @68sdps --- Katierakel 8k @58sdps --- Bitie 7k @55sdps --- Fundo 7k @51sdps --- Jonwayne 7k @51sdps --- Nejinmy 7k @50sdps --- Mebbas 7k @49sdps --- Barlow 6k @48sdps

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 170s, 179k @1054sdps --- Detoxx 17k @102sdps --- Grimgart 13k @77sdps --- Keak 13k @76sdps --- Katierakel 13k @75sdps --- Florid 13k @74sdps --- Viscere 11k @66sdps --- Reptak 10k @60sdps --- Unfaithful 9k @54sdps --- Fallson 8k @50sdps --- Scarlo 8k @48sdps

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 131s, 180k @1374sdps --- Detoxx 16k @123sdps --- Digler 14k @104sdps --- Jonwayne 14k @103sdps --- Baxter 12k @89sdps --- Katierakel 11k @87sdps --- Grumpor 11k @83sdps --- Bitie 11k @83sdps --- Dripping 10k @79sdps --- Roublard 9k @70sdps --- Thermite 7k @55sdps

/GU The Progenitor in 226s, 175k @775sdps --- Detoxx 35k @155sdps --- Fundo 24k @105sdps --- Gollum 18k @81sdps --- Eliashib 17k @76sdps --- Bollokks 15k @65sdps --- Xann 11k @51sdps --- Steelz 11k @50sdps --- Florid 11k @49sdps --- Lazie 10k @45sdps --- Hiyashi 10k @44sdps

/GU Wuoshi in 106s, 73k @684sdps --- Detoxx 11k @107sdps --- Digler 9k @84sdps --- Katierakel 9k @84sdps --- Cyrano 7k @62sdps --- Dudeisbeast 5k @48sdps --- Jonwayne 4k @42sdps --- Mebbas 4k @41sdps --- Florid 4k @36sdps --- Legday 3k @31sdps --- Bitie 3k @28sdps

/GU King Tormax in 223s, 419k @1880sdps --- Detoxx 19k @87sdps --- Digler 18k @79sdps --- Bitie 16k @73sdps --- Fundo 16k @70sdps --- Jonwayne 15k @69sdps --- Faided 14k @65sdps --- Grumpor 14k @64sdps --- Katierakel 14k @64sdps --- Cyrano 14k @63sdps --- Corkian 14k @62sdps

[skarlorn]

Most monks are played by weirdos anyway.

[pasi]

In terms of sheer damage taken, yes - they are #2. No excuses, you had 16 years to learn that.

You're also comparing one of the stronger classes in the game versus the two weakest classes throughout EQ's history.

Monks were nerfed in Luclin because Warriors complained that with the high AC on all/all gear (mostly on Velious Gear, but wasn't widely available until Luclin) combined with the minimal returns on AC above the softcap meant that monks took in less damage than non-disc'd warriors.

The result was that monk avoidance was buffed and their mitigation got nerfed.

Then you have Brodda Thepp's parses in PoP that showed monks were probably still taking in damage at a lower amount than Knights.

CLS AC SHLD AVD DB DI AVG MIT% ATKS HIT% MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
WAR 2271 15% 0 87 21 223.3 71.1 2573 48.9 42.2 NA 4.2 5.9 5.3 | 109.2
SK 1861 0% 10 102 22.1 268.4 65.6 2951 48.9 44.2 NA 3.5 5.3 3.8 | 131.2
PAL 2066 0% 0 102 22.1 255.1 68.8 3153 51.1 40.4 NA 4.1 5.5 4.7 | 130.4
CLR 1958 2% 0 100 22.1 270.5 64.6 2775 65.7 33.1 NA 1.8 NA NA | 177.7
RNG 1728 2% 10 100 22.1 292.1 59.5 2359 48.5 43.5 NA 4.2 6.0 4.0 | 141.7
ROG 1952 2% 20 100 22.1 302.9 56.9 3121 47.8 43.6 NA 5.4 5.4 4.4 | 144.8
SHM 1859 0% 10 102 22.1 287.2 61.1 2932 63.9 35.0 NA 1.8 NA NA | 183.5
DRU 1565 0% 40 102 22.1 306.1 56.6 2619 61.1 37.7 NA 1.9 NA NA | 187.0
BST 1432 0% 25 102 22.1 320.0 53.3 2119 47.8 41.9 10.2 3.7 NA 4.0 | 153.0
MNK 1854 2% 60 100 22.1 311.0 55.0 3476 41.1 47.2 12.0 5.4 NA 4.7 | 127.8
*MNK 1635 2% 60 100 22.1 313.2 54.5 2923 42.0 46.8 11.6 4.9 NA 4.7 | 131.5

*MNK This is where I took 35000 copper to remove all monk AC bonus and tanked. It removed 219ac from my monk. Was it mitigation AC or avoidance AC or both? No one knows.

Then I did a set of parses in GoD (RIP TSW/SK.org) comparing a Time Monk versus a Time SK and Time Warrior which showed monks probably still ahead of Knights. A lot of this was attributed to shielding being weak versus avoidance being strong and the relative availability of both.

This is also ignoring important aspects of tanking like aggro which knights are undeniably superior or instant-burst mitigation which knights completely lacked (outside of paladin stuns on lower level mobs).

I think it took until the Shield Block AA in OoW for knights to finally start taking in less damage than monks.

TLDR: knights suck, roll a monk or warrior instead.