Gnome Shadowknights and Erudite Warriors?

[LordRayken]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, her opinion on lore is no different than your desire to have an ogre rogue^^ Lore is the reason there are no Erudite warriors or gnome shadow knights. You don't like part of it, she doesn't like any of it. Personally, I don't like any of the artificial restrictions such as race-class or even armor/weapons. It doesn't make any sense why someone would be physically incapable of putting on a particular article clothing unless it was too small, or in rare cases, restricted by magic. Sure, it could be less effective on some than others and it might actually be detrimental to some, but make it that way rather than some artificial restriction ^^

Yeah, I get that. It's just everyone in the thread seemed to grasp we were talking about lore and the theme behind certain race/class combos. Cecily had to come in twice and make comments that had nothing to do with the discussion.

Most of us realize it's for balance reasons and probably also for in game mechanics, but we were still talking about lore.

[fadetree]

Good games are actually more about what you can't do than what you can. When you start allowing too much, the game thins out and dies.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good games are actually more about what you can't do than what you can. When you start allowing too much, the game thins out and dies.

It's about meaningful restrictions and creative Liberty, fades. There's no reason why a lithe elf warrior would be physically unable to put on the same robe as her high elf companion. It may not be a good idea, it may not be effective, it might even diminish her standing with her people, but it doesn't make any sense why it would be a physical impossibility.

I'm not talking about contemporary delusions of class balance wherein every class receives a slightly different flavor of the same ability and extensive class specific equipment so that class choice is effectively meaningless. That doesn't make any more sense than artificial limitations.

What does make sense is implementing strong deterrents and profound obstacles to substantiate lore and then allow players to make those decisions. Too many gnomes becoming monks to confirm with lore? Make it more difficult for gnomes to become monks or find suitable equipment (they are tiny after all). Plenty of ways to herd the flock without shoving them single file down a fenced aisle.

[mr_jon3s]

Luclin allows gnome shadowknights , gnome paladins, halfling paladins, and halfling rangers.

[Videri]

I think the class limitations actually help make the lore "real." If you could make Troll necromancers, people would stop thinking of Trolls as stupid/backward/simple-minded, weakening the differentiation between races. Paladins are zealous, pious crusaders - not the mentality of a shire-dwelling, pipe-weed-smoking, foot-combing halfling. If you let people make Halfling paladins, they will, and Halflings will lose their reputation as such and just become short Humans with better stats.

I'm not saying they made all perfect choices, though. I can't justify no Halfling rangers, no Erudite bards (too fun for Erudite society?), Barbarian rangers/druids, etc.

And while we're fantasizing about this fantasy, the idea about creating class/race restrictions via other means sounds intriguing. You would still see the differentiation because of practical reasons, but every so often, that Dark Elf ranger that stuck it out just like Drizzt, or a Dwarf that went bad - really bad - and became a shadowknight.

[fadetree]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's about meaningful restrictions and creative Liberty, fades. There's no reason why a lithe elf warrior would be physically unable to put on the same robe as her high elf companion. It may not be a good idea, it may not be effective, it might even diminish her standing with her people, but it doesn't make any sense why it would be a physical impossibility.

I'm not talking about contemporary delusions of class balance wherein every class receives a slightly different flavor of the same ability and extensive class specific equipment so that class choice is effectively meaningless. That doesn't make any more sense than artificial limitations.

What does make sense is implementing strong deterrents and profound obstacles to substantiate lore and then allow players to make those decisions. Too many gnomes becoming monks to confirm with lore? Make it more difficult for gnomes to become monks or find suitable equipment (they are tiny after all). Plenty of ways to herd the flock without shoving them single file down a fenced aisle.

I know what you mean, but I don't fully agree. Even more or less random stuff can function in that critical role. It's like a movie, how much disbelief are you willing to suspend? Eventually you can reach a spot where stuff is just too dumb and it breaks 'immersion', but I don't think EQ is anywhere near that. Usually people complaining about restrictions that they don't think logically follow really means that they are irritated about that particular restriction for some reason. I'm not accusing you of that, I'm just saying I've noticed that over the years. First comes the irritation, and then the accusation of 'no reason behind it'.
'meaningful' is a tricky term. I do agree though that it can be taken too far.

[Nixtar]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You sound like someone whose religion just got mocked. Or like an atheist with "because science." What specific lore are you referring to? I'm guessing... class design would come before lore. And any lore after the fact would just serve as an explanation. But, yeah it's really just an arbitrary game design. That's a not a bad thing. It does kind of derail your special snowflake discussion though, which is obviously way more interesting. Please continue.

In all but the most rare cases(usually shitty mobile games) lore and game world is designed before mechanics. You may very well have an idea how your game should be played(like the extreme basic version before you add abilities classes etc)but to start designing classes without a creative direction is a really really backwards way of doing it(and would take A LOT more time).

The beauty of Everquest is that choices do have an impact. They did not design each race to be nothing but a random skin to choose from. Each races have a different kind of culture and the classes we can be is affected by this, as well as which cities we are welcomed in(before faction work).

In other words, saying it is an arbitrary decision is not true at all. However, unlocking race/class combos as the game went on probably was. Then it was all about making sure a very loyal and stubborn audience would stay busy playing and for whom making these weird class/race combos were the most fun. So even that wasn't really arbitrary but a decision made to make people play for longer. With it went class recognition and certain races styles.

Sadly this set the precedent for modern MMOs and we now have a market who cannot deal with anything other than zero impact choice and cannot live without instant rewards. When we end up with the ability to choose everything, choice becomes meaningless.

[Expediency]

Erudites should have been able to be monks. At launch only human can be monk which is weak sauce.

[fadetree]

It's the tradeoff for those majestic foreheads.

[jolanar]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You sound like someone whose religion just got mocked. Or like an atheist with "because science." What specific lore are you referring to? I'm guessing... class design would come before lore. And any lore after the fact would just serve as an explanation. But, yeah it's really just an arbitrary game design. That's a not a bad thing. It does kind of derail your special snowflake discussion though, which is obviously way more interesting. Please continue.

Move this thread to rants and flames and be done with it.