Do Not Engage: Warriors Vs. PALs/SHDs

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Grod [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A lot of it really comes down to the players and sometimes other players in the group need to adapt. Some tanks you don't need to worry about agro at all and it's efficient and with other tanks you have to hold back on your threat some it's just about knowing how to do it.

The other tactic I posted about building threat FOR the warrior so he can pre-taunt mezzed mobs is something in all likelihood very few tanks would ever think to do so the "reputations" of classes in a lot of times is based on the skill level of the average player of that class and not what exceptional players can accomplish with that class.

The thing is, especially in Kunark, an exceptional warrior will be able to hold agro just as effectively as any of the hybrids with better mitigation and on raids that essentially makes the hybrids obsolete so what happened in MOST top end raiding guilds is that they kept limited spots available for hybrids because there is no reason to bring in multiple SK's/Paladins if they are essentially limited to a DPS role or inferior in the other roles. For example, they aren't the best pulling classes, they aren't the best crowd control class and they aren't the best tanks.

Ironically the hybrids that brought the most to raids were the Bards and Rangers. Bards actually did make excellent pullers and could fill multiple roles and Rangers brought the most versatility although very few guilds used Rangers properly an exceptionally skilled Ranger was a very important addition to a raid. They were probably the best kiting class in game because Snares caused no damage and were high agro (Druids could snare but they were more effectively used as healers and SK snare caused damage which would lead to the mob summoning).

Rangers were also the best class to transition a tank death without a wipe because they had the most reliable agro of the DPS classes through fast casting snares and the longest avoidance discipline with weaponshield so between the tank transitions and kiting they could effectively fill important roles on raids as could the Bards although the Ranger jobs were usually more active unless the Bard was pulling.

Point is though that in most cases the skill level of the player > the class but at the end of the day, if you have the most skilled players in the most efficient classes for that role it trumped the classes that weren't as effective at performing those roles so a well played Warrior in almost situations is superior to a well played SK / Paladin. It's just the way it is. In most guilds, and that's the beauty of Everquest, the roles were performed by different classes based on which classes the best players in that guild were playing however tanking on raids almost exclusively went to the Warriors.

All I see is rangers are stupid

[Grod]

Rangers are actually a really versatile class that could bring a lot to a raid if played correctly. The problem with the class was not the class itself, but the fact that the majority of the people playing the Rangers didn't know how to utilize some of the tools that were given to the class properly and the class got a bad reputation because of it.

It was always humorous to me how powerful that class was (even prior to archery) and how bad the classes reputation was. Most people are probably not even aware as to how good the class can be because they never got to experience or raid alongside a skilled Ranger. Kind of a shame really.

[Nakara]

rangers literally have 1 job:

engage the raid boss with /weaponshield and cast as many flame licks / low level snares as you can before it wears off then let the main tank take over with a giant threat lead

[Noselacri]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've heard the argument here that warriors are superior tanks in classic EQ because they have better defensive skills, hence better damage mitigation. However, they have issues holding aggro, to the point that they sometimes need to have the DPS classes delay engaging the mob for a while as they gain hate.

Here is my question. While the warrior is doing this, the mob is effectively not taking any damage (OK, it's taking appreciable damage, but compared to the damage it would be taking if all DPSers were engaged, it's quite small). Overall, the mob takes longer to die, and will hence spend more time beating on the tank. If, on the other hand, your tank is a paladin or a shadowknight, DPS classes can engage immediately (feel free to correct me if I have this wrong), and the mob hence goes down faster, and will spend less time beating on the tank.

How does this extra time spent taking damage compare to the extra damage mitigation warriors have? Can one make a case to use a paladin or a shadowknight instead since the damage taken by the end of the fight might be comparable, or is the superior mitigation so powerful that this issue is minor?

It probably evens out more or less, or the difference is so small that it doesn't really matter. What's more important is that holding aggro throughout the entire fight, even towards the end of it, is not a given with a warrior. You could take a ten second head start and still lose aggro a minute into the fight. Warriors will do the job, and with a group/raid that knows how to operate with a warrior tank, they'll do it just fine as well. The rest just won't be able to push their classes to the limit.

Also, again correct me if I'm wrong, but a warrior has a greater need to focus on DEX and STR gear-wise so that he can hold aggro, while SKs and PALs can afford to gear up with AC, STA, and AGI since they can hold aggro with spells. To what extent does this make a difference in the end game in terms of the ability to soak up damage?

That makes no major difference. Most of the AC gear comes with those stats anyway, or the DEX pieces are available with equivalent AC to the normal stuff.

I also hear that warriors get better come Kunark. In what way? Does this mean that SKs and PALs are even less desired?

Warriors get a lot better in Kunark becase of disciplines, and to a lesser extent because the hybrids were kind of bad in that period of time. Defensive discipline is the cornerstone of raid tanking, and will stay that way until many expansions ahead which will be irrelevant for us. However, it doesn't become truly crucial until Velious, in my opinion, which is where warriors finally become the only real raid tanks.



See, in the current era, warriors basically aren't very good. The amount of mitigation they have over paladins and shadowknights is minimal, and the available gear does not readily exceed the worn AC cap which is when warriors begin to shine due to their significantly more favorable diminishing returns. They are more sturdy, but by a very small margin, and can't hold aggro for shit. Even with two SSoY and all that, your aggro depends entirely on the randomness of procs, and barring periods of extreme proc luck, you won't generate enough for everyone to comfortably do whatever they please without worrying about aggro. I think warriors are preferred for raid tanks at the moment more out of habit and tradition than out of necessity, because there's nothing they can tank that a knight can't, and it's a good deal more risky, even if it's a bit more mana efficient to heal a warrior. It's especially bad while leveling up where warrior aggro is truly pitiful and frankly not good enough to suffice in most cases, especially with non-twinks. I don't slow when the tank is a warrior, because by the time I can cast it without taking aggro, the mob is half dead anyway.

To put it simply, it's usually like this:

Warrior has bad proc luck: aggro is horrible and people will probably die, or will have to wait far too long before engaging/slowing/etc.

Warrior has average procs: aggro is okay, tanking will not be a problem if people are careful.

Warrior has good proc luck: everyone can do as they please, put out maximum DPS, slow early etc.

Paladin/SK is not in a coma: everyone can do as they please, put out maximum DPS, slow early etc.

Thus, since the survival aspect of tanking is currently not noticeably different between warriors and knights, the latter are probably overall better tanks when taking everything into consideration. We're talking like a 5% combined avoidance and mitigation advantage to warriors, and a base HP difference so small that an ogre SK will have more than a human warrior due to natural stamina. This largely changes in Kunark and Velious.

[Estu]

So what exactly does defensive discipline do? I have zero knowledge of discipline mechanics.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So what exactly does defensive discipline do? I have zero knowledge of discipline mechanics.

lasts 3 minutes

divides the mobs DI by 2

reduces the warriors dmg by a similar amount. I am not as familiar with the math behind PC damage, so I don't want to speculate more detail than I know

[Cars]

The Avoidance one is really only ever used on Venril Sathir as he has a lifetap that procs constantly and heals him for over 1000hps or something. But considering everyone wants there pants you will see the avoidance discipline quite a bit.

[Noselacri]

Uh... it's been a lot of years, but as far as I remember, it's two minutes of -40% damage taken and -40% damage dealt. Could be just one minute, I'm not sure now. There was an evasive discipline as well that did the same thing except with avoidance instead of mitigation, but it's on the same timer as defensive which comes out ahead for some reason or other.

[Estu]

What's the cooldown on it? Also, why is the defensive one used more than the avoidance one? Less risk of repeated high damage?

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's the cooldown on it? Also, why is the defensive one used more than the avoidance one? Less risk of repeated high damage?

When I quit playing in 2005, it was 10min 30sec from button press, so, 7.5 min between uses. However, I think it used to be a longer timer, maybe 15min? I'd have to research to be sure.

Some mobs have a very large DB and relatively small DI, such that they might hit for 410 420 430 440... 600. So in this case, evasive would be preferable as long as a max damage round wouldn't kill the tank because each avoided hit is saving a lot of damage. Whereas defensive would just lower the max hit from 600 to 500.

If instead the mob had a lower DB and higher DI, say hit for 225 250 275 300... 700, then defensive is preferred because it cuts the max hit from 700 to 450.

Evasive has the same duration and refresh as Defensive iirc.