An alternative to variance

[Daldaen]

Your idea seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreeing to drop every guild, who gets a lockout on a mob, to the bottom of the rotation is extremely logical. You ally up to kill a mob, you get a lockout, you drop down.

If you don't have a raid force 24/7, that is part of being in a casual guild. You need to be willing to accept allying on harder mobs like Trakanon or Cazic Thule when they happen to spawn at 3AM. Or you need to be willing to recruit more or merge to foster a large enough attendance 24/7 to kill mobs solo if you wish to occupy a solo slot on each mobs rotation list.

Guilds being allowed to ally, get a kill, enjoy the experience of that raid, get some nice loot/epic pieces, then a month later, having moved from slot 3 to slot 1 in the rotation and getting to kill that same mob, twice in the time many other guilds who kill it by themselves, kill it once.

The gatekeeper situation and the 1 hour to kill were retarded. On at least one occasion BDA didn't meet the 1 hour kill timer on a 7AM Gorenaire (after wiping once with a force of about 25). Taken ended up killing it probably 90min after spawn I think.

[Mon Mar 02 07:29:36 2015] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Mon Mar 02 08:31:32 2015] You have slain Gorenaire!

That being said. FFA and 1 hour to kill are HUGELY different. Having to sit and stare at a wall for 16 hours with a mage + tagger + extras, vs. Checking track every 30min and batphoning to get a force present. VS died within 3 minutes of spawn and was FTE'd within 15 seconds of spawn today when FFA. Having an hour is a vastly different situation. 3 Hours until the rotation is void is more than fair enough (which is what it used to be)

The sharing list wouldn't be 10 guilds if those who allied dropped to the bottom... At least not for mobs people care about. Draco/Maestro/Talendor may be 10 deep.

One thing that would make Class R super cool, is if Class R spawns could have their variance reduced down to 1-2 hours (if it won't make it go away entirely). Make it MUCH more palatable for Class R guilds. Either by having Rogean code the variance to be based on the class the mob will spawn in next. IF Class R -> 1 hour, IF FFA -> 4 hours. IF Class C -> 96 hours. Or have Sirken go and look at the 4-5 Class R mob's tentative spawn times and post a 2 hour window.

Cause Variance is retarded.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, it died because smaller guilds were abusing the system and refused any sort of reform.*





*blame it on BDA

I'm not blaming it on BDA or anyone, I was just proposing agreements that have worked in the past to address the issues BDA and larger R guilds had that were valid, with which many of the smaller guilds in fact agreed, contrary to what you claim. A proposal from which maybe you can build common ground.

As far as whose fault, for whatever reason, people couldn't come to an agreement before. It's on both sides to come to an agreement, not just on BDA, though BDA did make that difficult with the whole ultimatum business. I think blaming it on 'smaller guilds' is also disingenuous given that the proposal that caused it to fail was posted in the public forum for all to see exactly why it failed, and I personally saw a number of revisions as well. But what I DO know is that the many of the specific reasons in the proposal that BDA repeatedly highlighted were concessions that most smaller guilds I talked to were willing to make. The stuff they had problems with was the 1 hour window and the Gorenaire being a gatekeeper type stuff. To put it into perspective, the thing that was proposed as the new rotation rules was so bad to them that they would rather move to class C (Asgard), fold (MC), or merge (A-Team) rather than be part of that. That says a lot. To the smaller guilds, the current state of class R and the raid scene is preferable to the proposal that brought down the rotation, which was issued with an ultimatum rather than discussion. So just putting it off as "Oh smaller guilds wanted more loot, simple as that!" is missing the point by a mile. Whether it's against class C or smaller guilds, I guess your strong suit has never really been to see things from another's perspective without vilifying it.

Anyway not really interested in rehashing that old discussion. The point is, players on both sides can propose self-interested agreements with ultimatums all day, and if they do, we find ourselves pooping in a sock. Want poopsocking to end? At a minimum try to find common ground with those same players who ALSO want poopsocking to end. A good first step to achieving that is to stop seeing them as evil lootwhores with grabby hands. If we can't even do that, then pull out your sock and wait for VS :P

[contemptor]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your idea seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreeing to drop every guild, who gets a lockout on a mob, to the bottom of the rotation is extremely logical. You ally up to kill a mob, you get a lockout, you drop down.

If you don't have a raid force 24/7, that is part of being in a casual guild. You need to be willing to accept allying on harder mobs like Trakanon or Cazic Thule when they happen to spawn at 3AM. Or you need to be willing to recruit more or merge to foster a large enough attendance 24/7 to kill mobs solo if you wish to occupy a solo slot on each mobs rotation list.

Guilds being allowed to ally, get a kill, enjoy the experience of that raid, get some nice loot/epic pieces, then a month later, having moved from slot 3 to slot 1 in the rotation and getting to kill that same mob, twice in the time many other guilds who kill it by themselves, kill it once.

The gatekeeper situation and the 1 hour to kill were retarded. On at least one occasion BDA didn't meet the 1 hour kill timer on a 7AM Gorenaire (after wiping once with a force of about 25). Taken ended up killing it probably 90min after spawn I think.

[Mon Mar 02 07:29:36 2015] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Mon Mar 02 08:31:32 2015] You have slain Gorenaire!

That being said. FFA and 1 hour to kill are HUGELY different. Having to sit and stare at a wall for 16 hours with a mage + tagger + extras, vs. Checking track every 30min and batphoning to get a force present. VS died within 3 minutes of spawn and was FTE'd within 15 seconds of spawn today when FFA. Having an hour is a vastly different situation. 3 Hours until the rotation is void is more than fair enough (which is what it used to be)

The sharing list wouldn't be 10 guilds if those who allied dropped to the bottom... At least not for mobs people care about. Draco/Maestro/Talendor may be 10 deep.

One thing that would make Class R super cool, is if Class R spawns could have their variance reduced down to 1-2 hours (if it won't make it go away entirely). Make it MUCH more palatable for Class R guilds. Either by having Rogean code the variance to be based on the class the mob will spawn in next. IF Class R -> 1 hour, IF FFA -> 4 hours. IF Class C -> 96 hours. Or have Sirken go and look at the 4-5 Class R mob's tentative spawn times and post a 2 hour window.

Cause Variance is retarded.

In fairness, variance isn't retarded in itself. If people were reasonable, it wouldn't be so bad. The response to variance is retarded. But that's how it is :dunno:

[Daldaen]

No. Variance by itself is retarded.

Variance = Not Classic

Not Classic = Retarded

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your idea seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreeing to drop every guild, who gets a lockout on a mob, to the bottom of the rotation is extremely logical. You ally up to kill a mob, you get a lockout, you drop down.

If you don't have a raid force 24/7, that is part of being in a casual guild. You need to be willing to accept allying on harder mobs like Trakanon or Cazic Thule when they happen to spawn at 3AM. Or you need to be willing to recruit more or merge to foster a large enough attendance 24/7 to kill mobs solo if you wish to occupy a solo slot on each mobs rotation list.

Guilds being allowed to ally, get a kill, enjoy the experience of that raid, get some nice loot/epic pieces, then a month later, having moved from slot 3 to slot 1 in the rotation and getting to kill that same mob, twice in the time many other guilds who kill it by themselves, kill it once.

The gatekeeper situation and the 1 hour to kill were retarded. On at least one occasion BDA didn't meet the 1 hour kill timer on a 7AM Gorenaire (after wiping once with a force of about 25). Taken ended up killing it probably 90min after spawn I think.

[Mon Mar 02 07:29:36 2015] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Mon Mar 02 08:31:32 2015] You have slain Gorenaire!

That being said. FFA and 1 hour to kill are HUGELY different. Having to sit and stare at a wall for 16 hours with a mage + tagger + extras, vs. Checking track every 30min and batphoning to get a force present. VS died within 3 minutes of spawn and was FTE'd within 15 seconds of spawn today when FFA. Having an hour is a vastly different situation. 3 Hours until the rotation is void is more than fair enough (which is what it used to be)

The sharing list wouldn't be 10 guilds if those who allied dropped to the bottom... At least not for mobs people care about. Draco/Maestro/Talendor may be 10 deep.

One thing that would make Class R super cool, is if Class R spawns could have their variance reduced down to 1-2 hours (if it won't make it go away entirely). Make it MUCH more palatable for Class R guilds. Either by having Rogean code the variance to be based on the class the mob will spawn in next. IF Class R -> 1 hour, IF FFA -> 4 hours. IF Class C -> 96 hours. Or have Sirken go and look at the 4-5 Class R mob's tentative spawn times and post a 2 hour window.

Cause Variance is retarded.

Logical or not, if a smaller guild can't get an ally because a larger guild doesn't want to give up its spot, and misses it rotation slot and has to wait a month, that guild will start wanting to break out of the rotation. Just imagine a guild that has a raid force for maybe 4 hours a day. Unless the rotation slot affords them a 24 hour window in which to kill, without alliances FFA begins to look better than the rotation. Only 17% chance that the mob they want will spawn in their window, and a month's wait if it doesn't. It's not that the smaller guild itself may not want to do it, but other guilds who could serve as allies for a particular kill may not. And again, the goal of a rotation agreement is to make FFA Class R worse for everyone involved. Not allowing people who have ALREADY PROVEN they can take down a mob on their own doesn't accomplish anything other than trying to force them to have a larger guild that spans more time zones. For many guilds, FFA Class R is more appealing than that.


The ruleset we had regarding guilds holding slots was super simple actually. Much simpler to the type of stuff generated by this server anyway and especially those proposals by BDA :P

0. If not on rotatoin for a mob, try to FFA it to your heart's content
1. Kill mob solo (or as a raiding alliance of many guilds), you (entire alliance involved in kill) are now bound by rotation and have earned a single slot. Each player and guild can only be in one slot for each mob.
2. Once on rotation, kill mob however you wish, with whatever guilds you want. You earned it!
3. Fail to kill a mob twice, your slot may be revoked, you're back to FFA status if that happens and may attempt to get back on the rotation at your convenience.

The rules play out nicely because there's incentive for big guilds to WANT to keep small but capable guilds on the rotation (or else these guilds can FFA), but raiding entities that are not capable of solo kill do not get a slot. Essentially, the moment a raiding entity becomes capable of killing a target it becomes bound to rotate that target, and prior to being able to kill said target solo it does not take any loots. If it becomes unable to kill that target it drops out of the rotation again.

[Daldaen]

Well then I disagree with you.

If your guild can only kill a mob between 6PM-10PM, you shouldn't have a slot on a rotation where mobs are spawning in 16 hour windows. And it certainly shouldn't be a solo slot.

You should find a guild that can bolster your numbers for the other 20 hours, so that collectively you can kill mobs for more hours of the window. If you absolutely cannot find a guild/people to cover the graveyard hours of 3-6AM, or euros or aussies... then so be it. You just should have to pass on that mob and drop down to the bottom of the rotation for missing your kill.

The whole argument smaller guilds have made, is that being forced to track entire 16 hour windows requires them to conform to a playstyle which they don't have any interest in. Them losing out on their rotation slot because a mob spawns at 3AM and they don't have a force won't push these guilds to break rotation and go full FFA. Cause the FFA playstyle is one most of them don't wish to partake in. At least not in the state it exists on this server.

That aside - Get rid of Variance entirely or drop it down to something miniscule to remove some autofiring cothing folk, put in place a 2-Player per guild limit in zone when mobs spawn. Let the scene sort itself out over the next few weeks and assess the situation.

Variance wastes so much time for people and rewards people who stare at a wall for 16 hours straight not doing anything but staring, waiting. Playing the game should reward you. Staring at a wall shouldn't.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well then I disagree with you.

If your guild can only kill a mob between 6PM-10PM, you shouldn't have a slot on a rotation where mobs are spawning in 16 hour windows. And it certainly shouldn't be a solo slot.

You should find a guild that can bolster your numbers for the other 20 hours, so that collectively you can kill mobs for more hours of the window.

You assume a large guild is desired. I don't want that, I want to be part of a small but capable guild. I don't want to be part of a guild that has a billion people at all hours of the day. If you are saying that being part of such a guild means I can't go after Trak under reasonable conditions and chances of success in your rotation, I will just choose to FFA.

Which as you can see is what happened :P You aren't really giving me a choice. You are saying make a guild like the one YOU want to be in, or else don't have a reasonable shot at Trak, even though I can kill him if he spawns when I'm on.

I think you see rotations as some sort of reward for being large or capable. Rotations instead should exist to bind people capable of killing a mob from doing it at their own accord. To bind them so that they only get one turn, and that turn is known so everyone knows when to make time for their rotation slots. It's a concession every single guild on the rotation makes so they don't have to do things like poopsocking.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You assume a large guild is desired. I don't want that, I want to be part of a small but capable guild. I don't want to be part of a guild that has a billion people at all hours of the day. If you are saying that being part of such a guild means I can't go after Trak under reasonable conditions and chances of success in your rotation, I will just choose to FFA.

Which as you can see is what happened :P You aren't really giving me a choice. You are saying make a guild like the one YOU want to be in, or else don't have a reasonable shot at Trak, even though I can kill him if he spawns when I'm on.

I think you see rotations as some sort of reward for being large or capable. Rotations instead should exist to bind people capable of killing a mob from doing it at their own accord. To bind them so that they only get one turn, and that turn is known so everyone knows when to make time for their rotation slots. It's a concession every single guild on the rotation makes so they don't have to do things like poopsocking.

What I am saying is, no, your guild of 25 players, should not have a single slot on Trakanon if you can only kill him between the hours of 6PM-10PM.

If you want to kill Trakanon, and you want to stay in your guild of 25 players, then enter an alliance and kill it together whenever it spawns (and all the allying guilds drop to the bottom of the rotation on a successful kill) or share a single rotation slot among multiple guilds.

The alpha version of the rotation had what you desire. Guilds who only killed mobs during their desired 6-10PM windows were able to declare "Blackout Hours". Which meant if a mob spawned in an hour not favorable for them, they were able to hold their top spot on the rotation, then the responsibility fell on the 2nd or 3rd guild in the rotation to kill the mob. Some spawns would go 2-3 spawns with it spawning at crappy hours and then they would keep staying at the top of the rotation until it spawned at a good hour for them. That was absolutely fucking retarded and unfair to the other guilds who had to take those shittier hour respawn.

This server will never be favorable for what you want to happen. Never will you be able to just get a mob to spawn at 3AM and wait until 7PM when everyone is home from work to kill it. You can either get bodies to kill it at around 6-9 AM (3-6hour was about the maximum the previous system allowed) or you can not kill it by then but drop to the bottom of the rotation due to missing your kill.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I am saying is, no, your guild of 25 players, should not have a single slot on Trakanon if you can only kill him between the hours of 6PM-10PM.

If you want to kill Trakanon, and you want to stay in your guild of 25 players, then enter an alliance and kill it together whenever it spawns (and all the allying guilds drop to the bottom of the rotation on a successful kill) or share a single rotation slot among multiple guilds.

The alpha version of the rotation had what you desire. Guilds who only killed mobs during their desired 6-10PM windows were able to declare "Blackout Hours". Which meant if a mob spawned in an hour not favorable for them, they were able to hold their top spot on the rotation, then the responsibility fell on the 2nd or 3rd guild in the rotation to kill the mob. Some spawns would go 2-3 spawns with it spawning at crappy hours and then they would keep staying at the top of the rotation until it spawned at a good hour for them. That was absolutely fucking retarded and unfair to the other guilds who had to take those shittier hour respawn.

This server will never be favorable for what you want to happen. Never will you be able to just get a mob to spawn at 3AM and wait until 7PM when everyone is home from work to kill it. You can either get bodies to kill it at around 6-9 AM (3-6hour was about the maximum the previous system allowed) or you can not kill it by then but drop to the bottom of the rotation due to missing your kill.

But again you assume there are alliances to be had indefinitely. If I want to ally with someone but no one else wants to because they are either locked out or don't want to use up their slot, are you saying I shouldn't go after Trak then? If you say that, i understand where you're coming from, and don't begrudge you. And I hope you understand when I decide to FFA Trak the moment it spawns during the time my people are on. Soon enough that leads to a poopsock situation.

Basically I just think a rotation is not sustainable if entities capable of killing a mob exist but are not able to actually get kills because of rotation constraints. So for any ruleset to be sustainable, it'll have to prevent those situations.

Why do you even care about alliances? If Guild A has shown it can solo kill Gore, and guild B has shown it can solo kill gore, why do you care if they help each other just because they can't solo kill gore 24/7?

Also rotation alpha does sound retarded, not at all what I want. I think at the end of the day you are always responsible to find a way to take down your mob during your slot (alliance or otherwise) or rotation moves to the next guild. And failing twice means you lose your slot (as I mentioned). The only exception would be under my ruleset if you allowed a guild not on the rotation to kill the mob instead. The reason being that I like to incentivize allowing new guilds onto the rotation without forcing them to compete (class R through and through :P)

[Daldaen]

You aren't being limited in getting kills due to rotation constraints.

Your own membership's size, and playtime, coupled with stupid 16-hour variance windows are what are inhibiting your guild from killing Trakanon.

The reason I care is because it allowed guilds to get 2 kills in the time others got 1, because getting a kill and lockout wasn't dropping guilds to the bottom of the rotation.

And again, you can suggest these guilds could threaten to go FFA, but they won't. Because they are casual and only have 4-hour windows to work with.