(Yet Another) Necromancer Race Thread

[Erica]

I grouped with a level 59 Dark Elf necro last night. His hp went down fairly fast without regrowth, which is about what being an Iksar would add. I think he still lost a couple hp per tick with it on. I forgot to ask him if he regrets being a Dark Elf or not.

I personally would rather make a Gnome or Dark Elf necro, but there is no denying that adding hp regen to a class who constantly converts hp to mana is the best thing you can obtain. I would probably end up making a lizard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[HippoNipple]

If you are talking about PvP you should stick with Iksar. Long drawn out fights for a necro depend on that regen. A necro won't win a short fight anyways. It is all about HP/Mana regen. Tons of dots, dispels, cure disease, shadow steps. You will defeat your opponent over a long period of time and your HP regen will give you an extra cast.

If you are on a PvP server you know how important fungi tunics are. Well the Regen rate increase for fungi is 15 while the iksar regen while standing gives you an extra 8. Having a free regen that is over half as effective as a fungi during a long fight helps a lot.

[Uteunayr]

Not a problem. Also, looks like this thread was moved to the caster forum. Suppose it is more appropriate than Server Chat.

[ctre]

3 Paths that have been talked around but not followed there correct function Properly.

1: The I want to level the fastest path to 60
2: The I want to be the best necro class at 60
3: The PVP necro

1:
I favor the Gnome for this.
Good Side:
- Wall snooper
- Endless supply of mana with Tinkered eyeballs.
- xp penalty is low

Bad Side:
- Short. Some Steps are difficult to move around
- (Higher levels), Wants a regen from a friendly drood or shaman to help.
- AC is not as high

2:
Iksar (simple.. you have the gear, and the stats.. hard to beat )

3:
Eurodite... (( I admit .. never knew/thought about that required essential. +500 more mana


Everybody has rambled on about the above. great stuff.. (( just parting them appropriately)).

[DrKvothe]

I've been playing on Red lately, and it's reinforced my perspective on this issue. Exp bonus/penalty is largely irrelevant to your leveling rate.

Grouped: If you're grouped, your exp modifier basically doesn't matter. Collectively, a party full of bad exp modifiers is pretty noticeable, but YOUR choice of iksar vs whatever won't be noticeable. 5 rangers + iksar necro is gonna be essentially the same as 5 rangers + gnome necro.

Solo: If you only attempt very safe content where number of kills is limited by respawn timer only (there's plenty of afk camps like this), yes, your exp bonus will matter. If you're doing something more daring, the time you'll save recovering from a near wipe or that extra kill you're able to get every so often make a difference to largely offset the exp bonus. Either way, if you focus, play well, and work hard at it, you'll level fast. The biggest hindrances to leveling are ADHD, alting, sitting in EC tunnel.

Now let's say that despite all of those things that somewhat offset the 20% exp penalty, it takes a non-iksar 200 hours to get to 60 and an iksar 210 hours to get to 60 (just making up numbers). I would prefer to spend 210 hours on a noticeably stronger character than 200 hours with a noticeably inferior one.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the time you'll save recovering from a near wipe or that extra kill you're able to get every so often make a difference to largely offset the exp bonus

This "fact" is commonly repeated, but if you crunch the numbers (as Vexenu did in the thread he linked earlier) it turns out that:

Originally Posted by Vexenu

So ultimately the math tells us that the Iksar is indeed the more efficient Necro race for any time over 25ish minutes. However, despite this advantage they will level slower than the Erudite, because their efficiency increases are not sufficient to offset the XP penalty. It roughly works out to a 5% efficiency advantage for Iksars, at the cost of a 20% XP penalty (Erudite needs an extra 3 min of med time per level to offset Iksar regen advantage; 3/60 = 5%).

So if you agree with Vexenu's math that means that instead of:

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now let's say ... it takes a non-iksar 200 hours to get to 60 and an iksar 210 hours to get to 60 (just making up numbers). I would prefer to spend 210 hours on a noticeably stronger character than 200 hours with a noticeably inferior one.

The actual numbers (assuming 200 hours = level 60) would be more like non-Iksar: 200 hours vs. 230 hours.

I still agree with your basic logic for someone's main (or even their primary alt), but if we're talking about an alt that a person spends an hour on a week, then we're talking four years before hitting 60 as a non-Iksar vs. 4.6-ish years for the Iksar (with the non-Iksar being ahead in levels for the entire four years that player played them).

So if I just want to play a necromancer occasionally, and thus I'm not worried about having the best Necromancer possible at level 60, then a non-Iksar looks very appealing, because my alt who's (basically) never going to make it to 60 is going to get new fun spells faster with a non-Iksar.

[DrKvothe]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is one of those commonly repeated "facts" that's not actually true. Vexenu broke it down in that thread he linked earlier in this thread:

IMO, his post entirely supports my claim. His math shows that just from extra kills, iksar regen should offset 1/4th of the exp penalty. That's a pretty big chunk. But more importantly, you've completely ignored the first part of my statement: recovering from a near wipe. If you're solo charming in tough spots, this will happen. I see necros soloing in HS, Lguk, KC, etc.

Imagine: you're FD, very low hp, and your former pet (undead, obviously, so see invis) is standing right next to you. You're just gonna have to lie there for a while, getting no exp and bored out of your mind. With iksar regen, that wait isn't as bad. A couple minutes here and there adds up.

[DrKvothe]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I still agree with your basic logic for someone's main (or even their primary alt), but if we're talking about an alt that a person spends an hour on a week, then we're talking four years before hitting 60 as a non-Iksar vs. 4.6-ish years for the Iksar (with the non-Iksar being ahead in levels for the entire four years that player played them).

So if I just want to play a necromancer occasionally, and thus I'm not worried about having the best Necromancer possible at level 60, then a non-Iksar looks very appealing, because my alt who's (basically) never going to make it to 60 is going to get new fun spells faster with a non-Iksar.

In this hypothetical I think I would still pick iksar. That hour you get to play the char each week will be 5% more fun (via Vexenu's math), and if I'm not trying to rush to 60 I'd rather spend my time in FoB, Kurn's, LoIO, and FM. Yes, a gnome could level in those places, but if you've got an hour to play, spending that hour on travel would just suck.

[Victorio]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This "fact" is commonly repeated, but if you crunch the numbers (as Vexenu did in the thread he linked earlier) it turns out that:



So if you agree with Vexenu's math that means that instead of:

Here's a link to the Vexenu's post since no one else linked it:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...52&postcount=8

The problem is that Vexenu makes some really terrible assumptions.

Most glaringly, he magically gives his erudite necromancer a 700 mana infusion every hour on the hour. In reality he needs to make up the 1800 mana per hour, not 1100.

Then he calculates "additional liched medding time needed" rather than comparing mana/hour to mana/hour. His comparison is wrong for multiple reasons:
1. Comparing this way skews ratios (much in the way that 1/0.95 != 1.05/1.00)
2. it neglects that this additional liched medding time is going to cost even more hp
3. It gives the illusion of minutes per hour yielding some true percentage, when in fact one is not even close to always medding (casting, pulling, etc.)

Let's assume for his lvl 54 necs that he's medding 80% of the time and standing/casting 20% of the time, with lich on constantly.

600 ticks in an hour: 480 sitting ticks, 120 standing ticks
Normal Mana Regen: 20 mana / tick when sitting, 1 mana / tick standing.
Lich Mana Regen: 20 mana / tick from lich
HP Regen: +5 sit, +2 stand for Erudite, +12 sit, +6 stand for Iksar
Lich HP Loss: 21 per tick

Mana Regen: 19320 mana
HP Loss: Erudite - 9960 ; Iksar - 6120
Mana Cost to Regain HP: Erudite - 4980 ; Iksar - 3060
Net Mana Regen: Erudite - 14340 ; Iksar - 16260

At this point, we have 16260/14340 = 1.134. So you have 13.4% more non-BoD mana for the iksar - not enough to make up for all the xp penalty, but much better than what was cited before.

If we repeat the same analysis for lvl 56 regen, all else equal except for:
HP Regen: +6 sit, +3 stand for Erudite, +16 sit, +10 stand for Iksar

We end up with:
Net Mana Regen: Erudite - 14640 ; Iksar - 17460

At this point, we have 14640/17460 = 1.193. So you have 19.3% more non-BoD mana for the iksar - enough to make up for the penalty.

Once you get to 60, there's another bump in regen.

Note: In reality, you are not really getting 2 hp per mana unless you never lifetap. It will normally cost you more mana to regain that hp, but this analysis is also discounting the 2 damage / mana that you're doing using those BoDs (as compared to more efficient DOTs).

That being said, a lot of time in this game is spent standing and running places, moving around camps, etc. Being able to run with lich on (and then with it off, to regen) is very useful indeed. And being able to regen quickly to full HP without needing a mob to tap around is also useful.

EDIT: if you consider a more realistic HP per mana value of 1.75, from a mix of lifetaps and BoD, the values go to 16.1% and 23.1%, respectively. And, as stated before, adding in more realistic scenarios with wipes, having to recover or go AFK while FD, more standing time spent pulling, etc., then iksar clearly evens out and pulls ahead.

[Uteunayr]

Again, I caution everyone away from using simulations as a means of determining what is ideal. In my brief post, look at all the different variables I had to take account of to make a simple 1 minute situation with a VP Stick and Manna Robe. There are so many things to take into account, no basic mathematical breakdown on this forum is going to capture it. Sorry. Unless you can start to gain percentage chance of a roamer hitting you, percentage chance of player failure, percentage chance of your house catching fire so you step away while Liched, etc. you're not going to get an accurate picture of Non-Iksar vs. Iksar. There are too many variables to consider, you're practically going to need to create Hari Seldon's psychohistory.

A simulation is *only* as good as the assumptions it is founded on, and there are a lot of damn assumptions that are going into the math used by people when arguing necromancer, even my own. Assumptions on gearing makes a major difference, and the Erumancer makes many of those assumptions. These things matter a good deal, because sometimes even though an item has more HP, there are not good alternates to shaft your Int. I disagree with a large number of the gear decisions madew by Erumancer, and I think they show a lack of balance. Going with 15 HP on pants vs 3(6) Mana + 5 Mana + 10 HP is a dumb decision until you're capped on Int. A 55 HP ring vs 25 HP + 35 Mana + 4(6) Mana, going with the former is a dumb decision.

So I took my personal build, and removed the Manna Robe and VP Stick to get rid of droppables. I kept items that I see as being a part of basic raiding once would do (Sky shoulders, sky wrists, Yael belt, Vox face, Blighted gear) to give a decent overview of what a more "capped" toon would be. Here is FakeNecro with his 1418 HP, 3055 Mana and Regeneration. He sits at 205 Intelligence and 99 Stamina. With the same gear, lets see FakeErudNecro and his 241 Intelligence. He has 1399 HP, and 3327 Mana but no Regeneration. But of course, one might say "But you're making gearing decisions you wouldn't make as an Erudite! You're stacking too much Int, you need to take more HP biased item alternatives!!!! Stop bullshitting us Sesser!" I hear you cry. The problem is there are not always excellent HP alternatives that make up for the stat loss. For example, there's more HP on a Rokyl Crystal, so why did I choose a Hand for this toon, even when Iksar?

Hand of the Reaper vs Rokyl Crystal: Hand of the Reaper = 15(6)+20 = 90 + 20 = 110 Total stat and +10 MR. Rokyl Crystal = 50 HP = 50 Mana = 100 Total stat. I'd still want to use a Hand until I was clipping 255 Int.

One may think, "Sure, but that's a rare situation! Hand of the Reaper has so much int, you sort of need to go with it. What about those other things?"

Band of Eternal Flame over a HP Ring!: 4(6) + 25 + 35 = 84 total stat. HP Ring = 55 = 55 total stat. I'd still want a Band of Eternal Flame.

Mantle of Souls? Why no Sky shoulders all of a sudden?!: 10 (6) = 60 + 75 = 135 vs 5(6)=30 + 30 = 60 + 65 = 125.

Why Tobrin's Eyepatch??!!: 15(6)= 90 vs 2(6)=12 + 30 + 30 = 72. I'd want the Eyepatch anyway.

GEBs over ShadowBound when you have so much int?: 9(6)=54 vs 15 + 15 = 30.

In the end, there is a lack of variety of valuable item upgrades to maximize HP without shafting mana disproportionately, even when taking into consideration the 6 int per of being over 200. So by taking many HP items, you lose more Mana than it is worth simply because there are no other items that become competitive.

What do I mean by this? Perhaps the best example of a pair of items that are evenly matched but change value based on your relative position to the int cap is the Blighted Skullcap and the Platinum Tiara.

Blighted Skullcap is 8 Int, 10 HP, 20 Mana, 10 SVMagic. The SV Magic is just a cherry topper for now, not a deciding factor. 8 Int below 200 is 8(12)=96, with 10 HP and 30 Mana so 126 total stat. A Platinum Tiara, however, is just 35 HP and 50 Mana, so a mere 85 stat. Blighted Skullcap wins! Except when you go over 200 int. 8(6)=48 + 10 + 20 = 78. Now suddenly, Platinum Tiara is looking pretty good! You get more out of it, and you get to displace Mana into HP! Hell yeah! Now what if you were at 199 Int before a cap? That means 1 of the 8 int would be 12, and the other 7 would be 6. So it would be 48 + 6 = 54 + 10 + 20 = 84. Platinum Tiara still pulling ahead by a squeeker! So what we can now say is when you're at 198 Int or lower without a hat on, the Blighted Skullcap is superior. When you're at 199 or greater intelligence, the Platinum Tiara is better.

That is one slot where you have plenty of variety where you have different items with similar values that change based upon your position in the intelligence cap. Most slots lack this variety. So even if you wanted to, you couldn't shaft some intelligence from the Erudite in the example without losing overall stats.

I hope the grand point is getting across: When we break things down into this type of math, we're making vast numbers of assumptions. These assumptions change the output of the simulation, and make it appear differently. This obscures the truth, and makes it hard to get a feel for what is going on. Even what I write in this thread is subject to a number of assumptions to limit the external validity. I make a number of assumptions, many of which may not even be apparent to me, when I break down the gear this way. The one I can think of that is most apparent is that 1 Mana is equal to 1 Health. But this changes from situation to situation, as I discussed in my previous thread.

Try it. Play two necromancers. Ask your friends if they have a necromancer toon, and play theirs for a bit. Spend a day rolling around as a Non-Iksar, and then a day rolling around as an Iksar. Go solo in HS for a bit. Experience the difference. There is only one way to truly account for the many variables outside of our assumptions, and that is to get into the world where those variables are unavoidable.

How about accounting for the value of:

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imagine: you're FD, very low hp, and your former pet (undead, obviously, so see invis) is standing right next to you. You're just gonna have to lie there for a while, getting no exp and bored out of your mind. With iksar regen, that wait isn't as bad. A couple minutes here and there adds up.

Lets take these two imaginary necromancers I created. Both FD at 1hp and their charm pet is right on top of them. They want to regenerate to full so they have the HP to get up, ST, and recharm without getting fucked in the face. FakeNecro (Iksar) gets 14 HP a tick while feigned, while FakeErudNecro gets 5. FakeNecro has 1418 HP, meaning he needs 101.29 ticks (round up to 102 since you can't partial tick) to get to full. 102 x 6 seconds = 612 seconds, divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 10.2 Minutes. Now FakeErudNecro is at 1399 and gets back 5HP a tick. Or 279.8 (round up to 280 since you can't partial tick) total ticks to get to full. 280 x 6 seconds = 1680 divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 28 minutes. So the Iksar will be getting up nearly 18 minutes faster.

But I hear you say "But surely that never happens!"... but it does. How can we predict how often it happens? Do we make the faulty assumption that nothing bad will ever happen? Bad things do happen. Doesn't matter how good you are. You will fuck up. How do you weigh the relative value of getting back on your feet versus mana efficiency in a pure sitting situation? These are assumptions, and the more limited they are in simulations, the more external validity issues you have... The more the simulation doesn't represent the reality of the experience.

Just try it. Seriously. That's the one way to get a good feeling of all the different variables that need to be captured. I don't think I have ever met someone who has done both as I have, and came out of it thinking regeneration wasn't a massive boon. Just keep in mind: Experience penalties are temporary. Faction problems are a part of the necromancer experience, and they are temporary. Regeneration is forever.