Trio help: Enc & Nec & _____

[Duckwalk]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shm is a great choice for 50+, and so is cleric, but from 1-50 druid has them beat hands down. It's not a "weaker version", it's unquestionably a stronger version. Level in outdoor zones like the oasis, the karanas, LoIO, OT, FM, Kedge, etc. Rather than having a shaman slowing mobs, which isn't particularly effective until Togor's and that still costs 175 mana, use terrorize animal (30 mana) or the enchanter or necro fear line with snare. With the druid charming and necro using a more easily controlled pet instead of charming undead, the necro can be on top of cc, healing, twitching, etc. all the time. Mobs will melt, pulls will be constant, and you'll never ever die.

The high mob density areas of outdoor zones are much more frequently empty than the good exp camps in dungeons. You'll spend a lot less time looking for an open camp, you'll get many more kills per hour, you'll die a lot less often (snare, sow, and wide open spaces ftw). In practice, these more than make up for a poorer ZEM, unless you're willing to grab dungeon camps during off-hours and play for long continuous sessions. Normally it can be difficult to quickly put together a powerful trio like this for some outdoor zones, but y'all come pre-packaged so it's not an issue.

Not sure if serious.

Druids are hands down better than Shaman because they get cheap animal fear and snare?

You realize we are talking about a group where either the necro or enchanter can fear and the necro can snare? And both classes have access to clarity or best in game mana regen so the fact that the druid version is marginally cheaper is essentially worthless.

Sow? Shaman has that (and earlier).
Charm animals? Yup, Shaman gets that too as well as a controllable pet.

Shaman get all that while still having best in game slows, much better mana regen and malo (for all these charmed pets).

Literally, the only thing a druid would bring is ports and thorns (or aggro kiting if you want 1/3 of your dps just running the mob around.

Druid fail.

[Duckwalk]

Also, some shaman have snare clicky neck. Lol

Druids are port bots.

[Duckwalk]

Clerics potentially have access to fear and snare clicky too.

The point being though that all shm or clr, either group will be able to do outdoor stuff just as well while also having a more substantial and powerful foundation of dungeon groups.

[DrKvothe]

Shaman pet dps is a joke, and animal charm even more so. Most shamans don't ever bother with it. First one is at lvl 29 and only works up to lvl 24 animals, so it's obsolete pretty much right away. The 34 spell works up to lvl 33 animals, which is obviously fine for a while but drops off pretty quickly.

What is the shaman doing before 40+, when it finally becomes worth casting slow? Crap dps and the same buffs a druid can offer.

If you're doing the unrest, mistmoore, CoM, KC route, or virtually any other standard ZEM-centric route, then druid will be a terrible choice. Let your druid pick the zones and you'll be pleasantly surprised when he matches the dps of your enchanter and necro while still providing sow/regen/etc.

Edit: and 6 second clicky snare is impractical for all the things that you actually need snare for. 6 seconds?

[Duckwalk]

Mana isn't an issue with canni, constant necro heals and clarity. Even discounting the massive mana advantage a shm will have, allowing for constant casting of nukes dots or other spells, I won't debate that some classes don't develop till 30+.

Assuming a druid is the best outdoor option for a enc/nec trio from 16 (charms) to 29-34ish, that's still an incredibly small fraction of the game.

Personally, I'd rather have a marginally less effective class for 15 early levels and then vastly more powerful class for the last 30+ levels.

Which was the entire point of the thread, which class will be the best addition to this group? Not only for outdoors level 16-29, and not only if fear kiting, but for the entirety of their EQ life.

[DrKvothe]

I still think you're overstating the case for shaman before 50+, and only then because a) there aren't many spots for druids to shine in pet groups the way they do pre-50, and b) the necro pretty much has to charm at this point.

Off the top of my head, from 34+, you've got SolB, kedge, OT,and EJ with druid charmable pets. Are DL cockatrices druid-charmable? There's probably many more. The list gets very short from 50+.

A shaman will bring no dps to the group. Slowing is a more general-purpose form of damage control than snare/fear, since you can do it anywhere and on almost anything, but it's certainly not more efficient. Even with canni, clarity, regen-line, etc. a shaman won't have the mana to do much more than keep buffs up, spot heal during/after charm breaks, and slow mobs. If he does, you're pulling/killing too slowly, which I expect will be the case.

So which class will be the best addition to this group? Not just for 50+ and in the most overcrowded, overcamped dungeon spots using tactics meant for groups with tanks, but from the ground up and by whatever means best fit the trio? Dr00d.

[Duckwalk]

I think your overstating Druids charming capabilities. Solb bats for instance won't even be viable till late 40s/almost 50. There are far less charmable animals (especially in accessible zones or zones with good zem) than charmable undead..

And assuming any situation the druid is not charming, a shaman would be far preferable.

At 2 hastened charm pets alone will tear through just about anything they face as will a necro pet, charm pet and a single shm dot (or doggy). So really the issue isn't about adding dps but added utility.

A druid will bring thorns and ports.
A shaman will bring better slows, mana regen, and most importantly malo (for those charmed pets).

I don't think anyone is denying that a Druid would be a good trip partner but overall (outdoor, indoor, level 1-60), a shaman or cleric will end up being more effective.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, I'd go shaman. Shaman/necro is a very strong duo at all levels in case the enchanter can't log on for whatever reason.

This is a really important point that shouldn't be overlooked, and while there are strong arguments for Cleric, Shaman and Druid to round out the trio, for this reason I think Shaman takes it.

Shaman can duo very well with both the Necro and the Enchanter if one of them isn't around.

The virtues of Shaman/Enchanter have already been elaborated on, but Shaman/Necro is an underappreciated duo, and as far as non-Ench power duos go I'd rank it right up there with Monk/Shaman and Epic Mage/Cleric, depending on the situation. You can root rot a ridiculous amount of mobs at once (one of the most impressive and annoying things I've seen was a Shm/Nec duo at seafuries pretty much killing the entire island by themselves, non-stop) and never run of out mana due to Shm epic + canni + necro heals, and the Necro overflowing with mana from the Shaman's regen. And tougher single target mobs can be tanked by the Shaman with slow while the Necro sends in the Rogue pet, stacks DoTs and feigns agro as needed. The classes synergize very well together and it's a very fun, active combo to play for both the Shaman and the Necro (i.e. compare to Mage/Cleric which is pretty monotonous for each, or Ench/Cleric where the Chanter does 90% of the work).

[DrKvothe]

There's a lot of praise over shaman/enchanter duo, but I think it's greatly exaggerated pre-torpor. Basically you've got 2 general strategies that seem popular, although there's plenty of variations of each.

1) Shaman roots/slows, enchanter pet kills. Shaman can epic clicky for some added dps (Up to 16 dps, depending on the length of the fight) and jbb clicky to finish stuff off (doing this continuously costs a lot of med time and will break root a lot).

2) Enchanter charms something, runs it into a pack. Shaman and enchanter root everything very close to each other. The pack proceeds to slaughter the pet, enchanter breaks charm at low hp, charms a new pet, rinse and repeat, with shaman nuking down the low hp mobs.

Strategy 2 can just as easily be accomplished by a druid, so let's ignore that one. Both get clicky nukes, although the druid clicky nuke is aoe so that should probably only be used once all the remaining mobs are low hp, in case of root breaks. Either way, both classes will be using less mana for 1 root and 1 nuke per mob than the enchanter charming each mob.

Strategy 1 obviously requires a shaman. Is it better than fear kiting with enchanter and druid pets? Well, you're losing 50% of pet damage and gaining some clicky damage, if the shaman has an epic and/or JBB and is appropriately leveled (45 for jbb, 50 for epic). So no, it's not better. It's worse.

Post by Loraen:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...59&postcount=3

Shaman/Enchanter is a powerhouse against very high-level mobs because of the dual MR debuffs and slows. When stuff hits for 250+ slow becomes extremely critical. But for leveling up it's good but not fantastic. In fact I would guess Druid/Enchanter would beat Shaman/Enchanter to 60 simply because there are so many zones where both can charm.

Druid + Necro isn't definitively worse than shaman + necro either. Plenty of undead dungeons are outdoor zones, and adding harmony to necro pulling tactics is pretty sick. Idk where you can both charm, but necro pet + druid charm is pretty great too.

[Raev]

The problem with Dru/Nec/Enc is that there are very few zones with both animals and undead. In practice the Enchanter/Necromancer will be charming and the priest of some sort will be healing. There is just no reason to have a Druid over a Cleric or Shaman when you can get a port from 5 zones away by offering clarity and a small tip.

Personal opinion: go Cleric. 1-59 a Cleric will be much better at keeping two robes alive vs charmed pets (stun when they break, far better +HP buffs than shamans, 5k+ CH on pets, and rez when things go south as they will from time to time). At L60 the Shaman will probably be just a touch better for really tough stuff than the Cleric, but your trio will have a much easier time entering a guild with a highly desired Cleric than Shaman-who-thinks-he-is-gods-gift-to-EQ-because-he-has-torpor-number-57238923.