Paladin vs SK

[Loadsamoney]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty sure that nerf came either in Luclin or the very very end of Velious, after the apex of their overpoweredness during Velious.

You can't have monks being the way they are, and still call knights 'good'. That's like saying riding a horse is a good way to go travel 100 miles quickly. Yea, you can go 100 miles on a horse.... but cars exist.

Being bad by comparison doesn't make them bad PERIOD.

[Chrysus]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Neither knight is bad, both knight classes are good. I will agree with "monks being overpowered", but the only pieces of shit I see are the trolls from red they allow to run free shitting up threads here with unchecked abandon.

You could easily argue that every class is "good", especially if you adjust all the metrics to their strengths. However in overall effectiveness and usefulness across the entire game (solo'ing, grouping, raiding, farming, pulling, tanking, xp penalties, etc.) it's quite easy to argue paladins the weakest class overall, to which I'd agree.

That said, the only thing I really dislike about the class is they get absolutely screwed on sky loot. 3 swords, 2 of which suck, none of which you'll use over your epic, and the weakest haste belt. So essentially they get 1 sky item. Compare it with any other class (including SKs) and it's as if they entirely forgot the class when they designed sky then just tacked the quests after.

/Duo'd with a paladiin 1-60, doubtful any other class combination would have been a better balance of effectiveness and fun, in part because it was so unusual in the p99 min/max'er world.

[Esheon]

Personally, I prefer to play the paladin. That's mainly for looks & RP, though. I have tried and tried to get an Iksar going, but the whole "we're all eeeeevil" thing just doesn't work for me.

On my druid, I find both paladin and SK pretty even in terms of tanking & holding aggro, assuming similarly-geared, similarly-skilled players. It's another case of "play what you want, it's all good", IMO.

[iruinedyourday]

throwin' this thought out there - with an enchanter I prefer (of the two classes) my partner to be a paladin. They can get aggro without breaking mez's so I can pre-slow and stuff.. they can finish off merbs for me when we duo and they can heal themselves while I let the pets battle, they can stun when hasted pets break etc.. they are really great combo with enchanters!

With my Shaman I prefer the SK! They can get aggro by throwing on dots on root-rotting mobs, I can heal them so no need for them to use a click to keep them selves up, and they can snatch aggro off me when a root breaks early while standing in place by simply targeting and tossing a small dot on a merb.

I like the synergy of the 4 classes - who all have weird connections in power/abilities.

Sham/SK Vs. Pally/Enchanter would be a fun best of the best duo combat challenge! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[kaev]

Aye, Paladin Sky loot is weak.

The better of the two one-handers is race-restricted (what the fucking fuckity fuck fuck?). I do use the inferior 1-hander (or once in a while the silly Bixie Sword Blade) with an SBS when it's necessary to avoid agro, but that doesn't make it good. (I am half tempted to redo Fiery Avenger just to have a low agro 2H option.) The Wind Etched Armor pieces just barely qualify as upgrades over Valorium and besides that they drop only from poopsock favorite Noble Dojorn. The trash drop Symbol of Marr looks good when you first see it, but you soon realize that its AC/Wis/Str are far less important than HP and/or Resists on raid gear so you never wear it, as opposed to the Cleric's Weight of the Gods or the Druid's Treant Tear & etc.

In the end you have only the haste belt. There's really nothing to compare to the marvelous toys most everybody else gets. It's a nice haste belt, but while 41% haste is exciting on a pure melee it's just kinda neat on a knight who has shit for dps regardless and relies on spell-casting for agro (make it an FT3 belt and it would be exciting [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]).

[Loadsamoney]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Aye, Paladin Sky loot is weak.

The better of the two one-handers is race-restricted (what the fucking fuckity fuck fuck?). I do use the inferior 1-hander (or once in a while the silly Bixie Sword Blade) with an SBS when it's necessary to avoid agro, but that doesn't make it good. (I am half tempted to redo Fiery Avenger just to have a low agro 2H option.) The Wind Etched Armor pieces just barely qualify as upgrades over Valorium and besides that they drop only from poopsock favorite Noble Dojorn. The trash drop Symbol of Marr looks good when you first see it, but you soon realize that its AC/Wis/Str are far less important than HP and/or Resists on raid gear so you never wear it, as opposed to the Cleric's Weight of the Gods or the Druid's Treant Tear & etc.

In the end you have only the haste belt. There's really nothing to compare to the marvelous toys most everybody else gets. It's a nice haste belt, but while 41% haste is exciting on a pure melee it's just kinda neat on a knight who has shit for dps regardless and relies on spell-casting for agro (make it an FT3 belt and it would be exciting [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]).

Pally Epic DPS is nothing to laugh at with the 41% haste. Double Attack with a hard hitting 2her like FD + the 155 Stun Proc produces some juicy numbers.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Loadsamoney [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pally Epic DPS is nothing to laugh at with the 41% haste. Double Attack with a hard hitting 2her like FD + the 155 Stun Proc produces some juicy numbers.

Compare to similarly geared Rogue or Monk and you'll quickly notice that Paladin is a tank and not ever to be confused with or described as a DPS class. Compare apples to apples (tanks to tanks) and you'll see that equivalently geared Warrior or SK outdamages the Paladin (not by much, but when you tout the damage output of a Paladin you're asking to be shown the light.) Sure, compared to indifferently geared EC twinks an epic'd & planar geared Paladin looks good, just as any other class looks good when they're geared far better than those they're compared to.

The Paladin's a knight tank, enough HP/AC to make Complete Heal powerful and to not be insta-gibbed except by the most outrageous raid bosses (the one bone the EQ devs tossed Warriors) plus excellent agro ability, with a bit of utility on the side. Why are we talking about Paladin DPS, except to laugh and point out that only the Cleric does less?

[Loadsamoney]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Compare to similarly geared Rogue or Monk and you'll quickly notice that Paladin is a tank and not ever to be confused with or described as a DPS class. Compare apples to apples (tanks to tanks) and you'll see that equivalently geared Warrior or SK outdamages the Paladin (not by much, but when you tout the damage output of a Paladin you're asking to be shown the light.) Sure, compared to indifferently geared EC twinks an epic'd & planar geared Paladin looks good, just as any other class looks good when they're geared far better than those they're compared to.

The Paladin's a knight tank, enough HP/AC to make Complete Heal powerful and to not be insta-gibbed except by the most outrageous raid bosses (the one bone the EQ devs tossed Warriors) plus excellent agro ability, with a bit of utility on the side. Why are we talking about Paladin DPS, except to laugh and point out that only the Cleric does less?

At least the Paladin isn't rock bottom.

Also, a lot of people claim that Paladins are horrible at soloing, but I think they can be quite good at it if they just make use of what they have. Root can give you a chance to back off and heal/med before continuing the fight, so a Paladin can do well in 1v1 combat if (s)he is smart about it. And Root can be used to deal with adds.

I was able to solo a Paladin from 30 to 42 in Unrest quite easily back in Luclin, making use of my undead spells, Ghoulbane, and rooting to heal/med when needed.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Loadsamoney [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At least the Paladin isn't rock bottom.

Also, a lot of people claim that Paladins are horrible at soloing, but I think they can be quite good at it if they just make use of what they have. Root can give you a chance to back off and heal/med before continuing the fight, so a Paladin can do well in 1v1 combat if (s)he is smart about it. And Root can be used to deal with adds.

I was able to solo a Paladin from 30 to 42 in Unrest quite easily back in Luclin, making use of my undead spells, Ghoulbane, and rooting to heal/med when needed.

Paladin can solo kinda-sorka-ok-ish until L45 or so. It gets pretty terribad post-50. Mobs have too many hp and your primary strength is taking hits not dishing them out. Those slow-casting little anti-undead nukes don't count for much against mobs with real hp. Even with DS pots, epic, and a good haste item it sucks. Your Paladin won't get xp much faster soloing than he will if you log to your EC mule and go afk (sadly, that's not a joke.)

You can get duo xp that's far better than solo, but still not as good as a decent 5 or 6 man group, with most anybody except another Paladin or a Cleric. Even a Warrior (use root to manage agro and keep the Warrior berzerk, suck down DS pots like an addict) or an SK (fear-kite to minimize damage taken and thus downtime.)

Befriend Enchanters. A group built around Paladin+Enchanter can do great things in a dungeon.

[Chrysus]

Originally Posted by Phased [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Deepwater/Blood Ember is closer in AC to Tolan's than it is to Cobalt and aside from the helm the effects pale in comparison to others. While the epic is amazing in exp groups, it's a death wish at raids and if your DA is down. The disciplines in Velious were a little bone. Healing Wave of Prexus is okay but unless you're decked out in NTOV gear you won't get many casts off.

But with a Palladius' Axe of the Slaughter, being a paladin becomes fun.

Luclin spell. The 55 group heal Paladins get in Velious is less effecient then a cleric group heal, heals for less and comes with a long recast. Same deal with the HoT paladins get in Velious.