What makes Rangers worse tanks than Shadow Knights or Paladins?

[Clark]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's the mitigation tables. Rangers tank fine for grind groups, takes some extra heals but adds dps and holds aggro like a mofo so the nukers can go nuts. Lets face it, the limiting ingredient in most grind groups is DPS, not heals. Should they tank over a knight? No. But if necessary, it works out fine.

[Zahr]

Pre-softcap ac + (post-softcap ac * post-softcap return rate) + shield ac

Pre softcap ac:

(defense skill level + player level)*1.88*(1+combatstability modifier)

combat stability modifer = ACLimitMod value from combat stability +2 from Physical Enhancement

1.88 = modifier, this was from pre-SoF

Warrior: 34.48%
Paladin/Shadowknight: 32.25%
Ranger/Cleric/Bard/Monk: 30.30%
Rogue/Shaman/Beastlord/Berserker: 25%
Druid/Necromancer/Enchanter/Wizard/Magician: 20%

This is from live, I have no idea if it's the same here. AC always has higher returns for war/pal/sk > ranger.

Rangers also don't get block, which is huge if you're aware (and I assume this server is the same) of how evasion is calculated per round.

every mob has 20 possible values it can hit you for - every single mob in the game has a 20 point damage spread, without exception.
this spread is determined by this formula: DB+DI*(1-20)
DB = damage bonus. a static number assigned to every mob. this number is reduced by the Shielding stat on gear.
DI = damage interval. a static number assigned to every mob. this is multiplied by (1-20) based on the mob's atk vs. your AC.

so, if we pretend that a mob has a DB of 10 and a DI of 10, you get the following:
10+10*(1-20)
min hit: 10+10*1 = 20
max hit: 10+10+20 = 210

if you assume 35% shielding you get:
min hit: 7.5+10*1 = 17.5
max hit: 7.5+10*20 = 207.5

warriors get a 5% reduction to DI inherent to the class (with higher innate reduction possible via AA, though the AA bonus reduction does not stack with Defensive) from whatever the final number (which basically translates to -1 DI, but not to drop under DI*1), and Defensive Disc and its variants give a 45% reduction to DI from whatever the final number is - meaning that a warrior in defensive is reducing the DI by half.

now, in EQ when you take all these factors, your AC vs. the mob's atk creates what's called your DI distribution - this is basically what percent of hits are where in the possible range of DI.
more AC = more hits will be lower in the DI spread.

AC number values - in-game display, rAC, and the softcap.
first and foremost, the thing most people don't seem to realize about AC is that the number listed in-game is 100% absolutely meaningless.
i'll say that again: your AC value in EQ is rubbish and is not in any way related to any actual calculation.
in in-game display of AC does not calculate the softcap on items/buffs/AAs, does not stop adding AC from agility past the hard cap, and adds AC to the display number based on your Avoidance mod2.
the more AC you have the higher that number will be in game, true, but that value in EQ is nothing but a "MOAR!!" number that doesn't translate into any kind of useful information.

your 'real AC' (or rAC) is derived thusly:
take your total 'true' AC (which is the AC on all your slots added together - or, if using magelo, the AC tab under Modifiers), subtract the amount of pre-softcap AC for your character, multiply the remainder by your softcap returns, then add that to you pre-softcap AC.

let's use my toon as an example. in magelo, my AC tab is 4000 AC.
assume that at level 90 the shadowknight AC softcap is probably somewhere around 750 (not positive on this, if anyone has the numbers let me know and i'll update this), and my shield has 281 AC - and if you didn't know, the AC from your shield is always 'pre softcap', so that gives us 750+281 = 1031 AC that 'pre' softcap.
with max AAs giving 55% bonus softcap (see below) that makes my softcap about 1598.
4000 - 1598 = 2402. so, i have 2402 AC subject to the softcap.
SK softcap is now about 40% (again, correct my numbers and i'll update this post). 40% of 2402 is 1442.
so, 1598+1442 = 3040ac. so, 3040 is my rAC just from gear.
(if you add up all the AC from all your buffs and then take 40% of that number and add it on top, that's your rAC with buffs)

[iruinedyourday]

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[Alanus]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ranger with Haste Cloak, Both Epics, and decent tank gear is a fantastic cleric/shaman duo partner. Any of the healers really, but with druid there is too much overlap.

I would farm the PoWater bows on EQMac for a decent profit. PoFire bows required raid drops (fiend guts), PoAir bows sucked cause PoAir alpha sucked (those spiders were god awful), PoEarth bow wasn't terrible but the vine generally required a raid and the bow staff was pretty rare.

I used PoWater bows to get my fletching to 300 on live. I was always the only one who did it, too. I made a ton of plat off of them.

Used to do it with Shaman box and Paladin. I would also farm the regrua for the crab claws or whatever they and make the bucket of crab meat. Would sell those for a ton as well.

[Alanus]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Properly geared, a ranger is a far better duo with a cleric than a paladin, though. If the ranger doesn't have a slower he ends up mitigating far more if he gets an earthcaller proc decently early into the fight. Combined with 41 haste and a DCOS and they actually make p goog clr partners :P

True. After celestial cleansing comes out, paladin + enchanter duo is hard to beat though.

[fadetree]

Pre-epic rangers can slow with a Swarmcaller, too. Cheap, good 2 hand DPS plus a slow proc. Hard to beat. I use mine until it procs, then switch to Woodsman's for serious bonking.

[webrunner5]

Come Velious, IF it ever comes out, classes will change a lot. Rangers are not going to tank anything in Velious trust me. And I am a big Ranger fan. A Paladin, which I am not a big fan of in Kunark will be NEEDED in Velious. They are great pullers if you know how to play them and they are good Tanks.

The old Tank, Cleric, Enchanter thingy is going to be VERY important in Velious. It is going to separate the men from the boys. You not only need DPS in that expansion you need lasting power. Which only a Cleric can make happen. It won't be a Shaman or a Druid healing you, it will be the Cleric healing you to save your ass. Velious is Hard Mode. What is easy now will be hard as hell later. You had better have a good puller, good Tank, good Healer, good slower or you will die. Simple as that.

[Tecmos Deception]

What content are you talking about, web? In my time on beta I've seen that yes, Velious stuff is harder than Kunark stuff. But if you compare apples to apples it really isn't THAT big of a difference... and it isn't as if most groups aren't already based on tank+cleric+enchanter foundation.

I mean, if you compare KC to SG then yeah, Velious is hell. But if you compare seb/HS to velks/DN... shit hits harder and some things are more resistant (basically just the 55+ nameds, of which there aren't many in Kunark to compare to, the trash mobs in these zones aren't more resistant than same-level mobs in Kunark)... but I don't think much of anything has more HP than Kunark mobs. And if you're talking about nameds in kael or skyshrine or whatever, then you need to be comparing that to stuff in the planes or chardok royals or whatever, content that isn't quite faceroll easy for the vast majority of the server now and that basically no one does without a raid; you can't look at raid-ish content on Velious and compare it to trash mobs in LCY and say "look how hard velious is!"

I think too much of the random memories of Velious are based on our situations back in the day. Too many of us were 13-year-olds who logged onto EQ for a couple hours to stare in awe at the screen after we got home from school; basically no one min/maxed shit, we thought agility was a good defensive stat, we were wearing banded while trying to XP at disco at level 50, etc etc etc.


No, ranger tanks with druid healers aren't going to be a good idea for high-50s mobs that hit for 300. But people don't even do crypt or HS north with ranger tanks + druid healers right now. Again, you can't point to something that doesn't work well now and that people don't do right now and say that because that doesn't work in Velious, whoa Velious is Hard Mode! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Splorf22]

Sure, if you are 1-grouping the Royals and trioing the sebilite protector than Velious will be more of the same difficulty wise.

But how many people are actually doing this?

[fadetree]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Come Velious, IF it ever comes out, classes will change a lot. Rangers are not going to tank anything in Velious trust me. And I am a big Ranger fan. A Paladin, which I am not a big fan of in Kunark will be NEEDED in Velious. They are great pullers if you know how to play them and they are good Tanks.

The old Tank, Cleric, Enchanter thingy is going to be VERY important in Velious. It is going to separate the men from the boys. You not only need DPS in that expansion you need lasting power. Which only a Cleric can make happen. It won't be a Shaman or a Druid healing you, it will be the Cleric healing you to save your ass. Velious is Hard Mode. What is easy now will be hard as hell later. You had better have a good puller, good Tank, good Healer, good slower or you will die. Simple as that.

Yeah, for the most part I agree with this, but not entirely. I tanked in Kael and Velk's some back in the early days of velious on live. Did a lot of tanking various giant and orc campes. Doable, but not great. Tanked the helmet of the tracker guy outside Kael with a druid and a shaman. Was able to be a pretty good offtank/root parker. Weaponshield to get the cleric camped is always useful.