Sebilis Crypt Camp

[Nirgon]

I knew you'd turn up in here you curly headed fuck!

[Derubael]

Here's the issue.

You can either call the "Crypt" (notice that players call it the 'Crypt Camp', not the heiro camp or the duke camp) one camp comprised of those four mobs, in which case you would need to demonstrate your ability to hold all four spawns at the same time. Or you can call it four separate camps, which may seem like a good idea at first, but let me give you an example of something I have seen happen on multiple occasions (and been called in to mediate this nightmare fuck of a situation):

PlayerA is sitting camping the heiro/duke, groupB comes in and wants to take duke, and so they claim that room by the camp rules. groupB also wants to go camp the other two rooms because its a full group and they don't want to sit in that one room. playerA takes that opportunity to call camp rules and demand that they stay in that one rooms spawn, because they can't hold multiple camps. Because the SECOND that group goes to clear those other two rooms, PlayerA who was there before is going to go "well i want to contest the rare spawn, you can't hold multiple camps, so pick one and stick with it".

Keep in mind that the common sense way to deal with this is to say "stop being dumb and let them clear the other three rooms", but there are so many rule lawyers on this server, and everyone wants to call foul when a guide/gm comes in and doesn't follow the rules laid out in the forums. The last thing our Guides need is more headaches.

That being said, if we were to make a new rule allowing the splitting of camps prior to another group and/or person coming in to claim the other portions of the camp, how do we define that? Can you just clear ONE spawn, or are you allowed to hold multiple if you were holding them before? Does this apply to ALL camps, or just certain camps? For example, if I'm sitting at the Mistmoore pond killing just one of the little two spawns in the corner, and a full group comes in and wants to kill those mobs, can I sit there and continue to kill those two mobs while they clear everything else? What happens if in the process of killing those two mobs I aggro other nearby mobs from the camp the other group is clearing around me? Am I allowed to kill those mobs to defend myself, or do I need to leave them for the group and let them kill me because I'm standing in the middle of a camp killing two mobs while the group kills the rest?

If it DOESNT apply to all 'camps' how do we define which camps it DOES apply to?

You guys see how complicated this is now? Help me out, I'm legitimately asking the community for input here.

This thread from this point forward will be heavily moderated. Intelligent discussion only please. Troll posts or posts that don't add anything to the discussion WILL be deleted. Thanks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread from this point forward will be heavily moderated. Intelligent discussion only please. Troll posts or posts that don't add anything to the discussion WILL be deleted. Thanks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This^ x2

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's the issue.

You can either call the "Crypt" (notice that players call it the 'Crypt Camp', not the heiro camp or the duke camp) one camp comprised of those four mobs, in which case you would need to demonstrate your ability to hold all four spawns at the same time. Or you can call it four separate camps, which may seem like a good idea at first, but let me give you an example of something I have seen happen on multiple occasions (and been called in to mediate this nightmare fuck of a situation):

Obviously you could also just call it some subset of the 4. Apparently they put a special rule in place for this camp that you can claim all 4 rooms without maintaining physical presence in all 4 simultaneously. It was a special rule to get around an already pretty dumb rule, but it's there. So is it not obvious that the solution here is to allow a person to camp 1 or 2 or 3 of those rooms and if someone else wants to move in, they can take whatever the first person isn't clearing? Is this really a difficult idea to grapple with?

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

PlayerA is sitting camping the heiro/duke, groupB comes in and wants to take duke, and so they claim that room by the camp rules. groupB also wants to go camp the other two rooms because its a full group and they don't want to sit in that one room. playerA takes that opportunity to call camp rules and demand that they stay in that one rooms spawn, because they can't hold multiple camps. Because the SECOND that group goes to clear those other two rooms, assholeA who was there before is going to go "well i want to contest the rare spawn, you can't hold multiple camps, so pick one and stick with it".

See above. Crypt is special. So groupB moving in can't just pull the lawyer card and claim duke. They can take whatever playerA is not camping. And once they have established the rest of the crypt camp, by clearing the mobs playerA was not clearing, playerA has no right to contest the mobs they were not previously camping. This isn't rocket surgery.

And I like how it went from playerA to assholeA. Your bias in this situation is showing. You clearly felt you have been wronged in this situation before and now are trying to punish people who don't play as you would like them to.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Keep in mind that the common sense way to deal with this is to say "stop being dumb and let them clear the other three rooms", but there are so many rule lawyers on this server, and everyone wants to call foul when a guide/gm comes in and doesn't follow the rules laid out in the forums. The last thing our Guides need is more headaches.

Yes, I suspect that people would be upset when rules are laid out in the forums and a guide doesn't follow them. I also suspect people would be upset when a police officer showed up to their house and didn't follow the laws written down in the books. I don't even understand your point here. You aren't going to make everyone happy. So why not just follow the rules that are already in place instead of creating some new rule for this situation?

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said, if we were to make a new rule allowing the splitting of camps prior to another group and/or person coming in to claim the other portions of the camp, how do we define that? Can you just clear ONE spawn, or are you allowed to hold multiple if you were holding them before? Does this apply to ALL camps, or just certain camps? For example, if I'm sitting at the Mistmoore pond killing just one of the little two spawns in the corner, and a full group comes in and wants to kill those mobs, can I sit there and continue to kill those two mobs while they clear everything else? What happens if in the process of killing those two mobs I aggro other nearby mobs from the camp the other group is clearing around me? Am I allowed to kill those mobs to defend myself, or do I need to leave them for the group and let them kill me because I'm standing in the middle of a camp killing two mobs while the group kills the rest?

Very simple. Whatever a person was clearing prior to a group moving is considered their camp. We don't have any pre-defined camps anyway. If a person wants to clear just the mobs inside the efreeti room and leave the rest of the trash up, why shouldn't they be allowed to? If another group comes in and starts doing the efreeti trash for xp, why shouldn't they both be happy in this situation? And if the person camping efreeti accidentally agros one of the mobs that belongs to the group, they can take it over to the group and offer it to them. Is it really that hard to apply common sense to this situation?

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If it DOESNT apply to all 'camps' how do we define which camps it DOES apply to?

You guys see how complicated this is now? Help me out, I'm legitimately asking the community for input here.

Well apparently this special rule about camps only applies to the crypt. It would be nice if we just defined all camps as being "whatever the person/group is clearing, regardless of how many rooms they are clearing", but we don't have that. So instead we have this crazy "sit in a room to claim the spawns within, except for crypt" thing. It's not perfect, but what you're trying to do with crypt only pushes things the opposite direction from where they should go. If you get to decide what constitutes a full camp and require people to clear the full camp to get any part of it, you're only increasing the amount of GM intervention necessary. Do you understand this point?

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And I like how it went from playerA to assholeA. Your bias in this situation is showing. You clearly felt you have been wronged in this situation before and now are trying to punish people who don't play as you would like them to.

Keep your irrelevant commentary out of this discussion, thanks.

Yes, I suspect that people would be upset when rules are laid out in the forums and a guide doesn't follow them. I also suspect people would be upset when a police officer showed up to their house and didn't follow the laws written down in the books. I don't even understand your point here. You aren't going to make everyone happy. So why not just follow the rules that are already in place instead of creating some new rule for this situation?

You mean like this one:

Originally Posted by Xzerion

Going forward, if you intend to hold or claim a camp, your group must retain presence at that camp. If you have no competition in the zone, you are more than welcome to hold as many as you like. The moment another party wants to claim a camp and you are "farming" multiple, you must decide which camp you want and forfeit the ones someone else is interested in. We still expect players to use the courtesy camp check before zerging a room. If there is a full spawn of mobs in a camp room up I think that would be considered not camped. How you pull the camp is up to you, as long as you are able to engage the mobs very shortly after they are spawned.

Hmm. Seems to be a clearly defined rule posted in the Camp, defined thread.

Originally Posted by Orruar

Very simple. Whatever a person was clearing prior to a group moving is considered their camp. We don't have any pre-defined camps anyway. If a person wants to clear just the mobs inside the efreeti room and leave the rest of the trash up, why shouldn't they be allowed to? If another group comes in and starts doing the efreeti trash for xp, why shouldn't they both be happy in this situation? And if the person camping efreeti accidentally agros one of the mobs that belongs to the group, they can take it over to the group and offer it to them. Is it really that hard to apply common sense to this situation?

So if I'm a solo player killing a couple mobs in the GY in Mistmoore and a full group comes in to XP there, that full group has to work around the one player killing 2 mobs in that camp? What if he's killing 4 mobs, but can't clear any of the rest in time? That GY group of 6 basically has to move on to a different camp (which may or may not be available in that zone) because 1 guy is screwing that camp for the 6 people trying to XP there. "its all so simple" but you clearly don't see the problem with your reasoning, or why it's important to clearly define things.

Do you understand this point?

Do you understand mine?

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

PlayerA is sitting camping the heiro/duke, groupB comes in and wants to take duke, and so they claim that room by the camp rules. groupB also wants to go camp the other two rooms because its a full group and they don't want to sit in that one room. playerA takes that opportunity to call camp rules and demand that they stay in that one rooms spawn, because they can't hold multiple camps. Because the SECOND that group goes to clear those other two rooms, assholeA who was there before is going to go "well i want to contest the rare spawn, you can't hold multiple camps, so pick one and stick with it".

I really don't see why PlayerA is the asshole here. GroupB wants it both ways: they want to be able to claim the duke because its a separate camp, but they want to be able to claim the entire crypt because its one camp.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really don't see why PlayerA is the asshole here. GroupB wants it both ways: they want to be able to claim the duke because its a separate camp, but they want to be able to claim the entire crypt because its one camp.

I changed the wording in the original post. PlayerA isn't an asshole because he wants to solo camp a mob - that's all good. In my example I changed his name to AssholeA because he was then lawyering the camp rules to limit a group of 6 to one room, and thus likely make them leave (because what group of 6 wants to camp 1 mob for hours on end unless its something big) and reclaim both rooms when the group left (a dick move and srs rule lawyering, which i hate)

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To the staff :

How many routinely contested camps are there? 50 or so, tops? Why don't you just rigidly define and name each camp in terms of exactly what it comprises, and lay down exact rules for each camp or portion thereof? Then publish it in a document and then tell everybody to stfu and follow the document. If they don't like the camp definitions or the rules, they can go run their own server.

It will be a pain to get it written up, but I bet you would win big over time by not having to deal with everybody's opinions as to what a camp is and whats allowed.

Please feel free to submit a document with rulings and definitions for 50 different camps, because none of us are going to do it.

Originally Posted by Spitty [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Derubael, you're best served by not turning this into quote-fest and spending some time thinking about your position here.

Imaginary scenarios, as fun as they are to use for strengthening your argument, are nowhere near the idiocy that I've witnessed or been subject to at this particular camp and never petitioned.

I don't have an argument here, I'm advocating for a clearly defined rule set that everyone can understand that doesn't have a bunch of grey areas that force our guides to make snap calls on when getting petitioned.

IMO a 'lets all play nice' ruleset is best, it just doesn't work that way in practice.

My apologies if my position wasn't clear - I don't have a horse in this race, except as it applies to making sure everyone has a good time, and our guides don't lose their minds trying to mediate camp disputes. Furthermore, I'd like to make a clearly defined ruleset that can be easily read and understood by the majority of players, and that our guides can point to in disputes and say "these are the rules"

Originally Posted by quido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I hope you can do the right thing and not arbitrarily change the rules 2 years later. One way or another, the rules regarding claiming Crypt are going to be an anomaly.

Again, I'm not against this, and I apologize if I made it sound that way. I ruled this camp today (and have been ruling this camp this way) because thats what the camp rules are. I'm not the only staff member who was doing it like this. and this discussion is no longer about whether I made the 'right' or 'wrong' call based on previous precedent.

[fadetree]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please feel free to submit a document with rulings and definitions for 50 different camps, because none of us are going to do it.

I don't have an argument here, I'm advocating for a clearly defined rule set that everyone can agree on and understand that doesn't have a bunch of grey areas that force our guides to make snap calls on when getting petitioned.

Well, thats fine, but you will get to continue to adjudicate 'camps' based on varying opinions. I'm not a guide or a member of the staff, make me one and I will write it.

My real point is that there IS no possible 'clearly defined ruleset that everyone can agree on' that will solve this problem. No amount of discussion will change that fact.

[baalzy]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please feel free to submit a document with rulings and definitions for 50 different camps, because none of us are going to do it.

Lets crowd source one then.

To begin lets list the highly 'contested' camps by zone and what rules to apply

Sebilis:
The Crypt this includes the 4 named in little rooms and the wandering named.
1) If the camp is completely unclaimed then any person(s) who enter may choose to take whichever room(s) they're capable of holding.
2) If the camp is partially claimed and another group wishes to be present, the original occupant(s) retain rights to the camps which they were already capable of clearing
3) If a group is capable of holding all 4 rooms plus the wanderer and was the first to arrive at an uncontested camp then no other player(s) may claim any portion of this camp.
4) If the original group is fully clearing the Crypt and also making pulls from the nearby emperor camp and a new group arrives, the original must choose which camp they wish to retain. Either the crypt or the emp.




I am mostly a solo'er and will freely admit I'm not really knowledgeable on all of the camps but I'll gladly compile a list from peoples replies and put it into another thread later to flesh out/discuss.