Velious Variance Discussion:

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

I had missed this until Falkun pointed it out, but yes. This x1000.

[falkun]

Well I tried answering the question, but then Barkingturtle came in and stated the blunt truth without beating around the bush. The raid scene is easy to fix, its the people that suck.

[Gadwen]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well I tried answering the question, but then Barkingturtle came in and stated the blunt truth without beating around the bush. The raid scene is easy to fix, its the people that suck.

It's nothing that a few months of aggressive banning and item deleting couldn't remedy, but I don't see that happening...ever.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Variance:

This is the forced randomization of raid mob spawn times. This is an artificially created solution to solve the problem of poop-socking. When it was created there was a 15-man on spawn rule-which basically means the first person to sit on RaidMobA's spawn point had claim on that kill.

The root problem with any discussion that starts like this is that whatever solution we encounter is not going to be classic.

The "First in force" 15-man on spawn points wasn't classic. To fix it (a non-classic rule) variance was introduced. In order to fix variance, we-ll be reverting to another non-classic rule an so on.

The real problem is that variance should never have been introduced to fix the 15-man rule, and the 15-man rule should never have existed either.

Things should be like they were during classic, and if that means 400 raiders from 6 different guilds know mob spawn times and show up right before a mob spawns for a chance at FTE lottery then so be it.

I agree with Sirken, the raiders should dictate how the raid scene runs. These gm-invented mechanics and rules are achieving the opposite, and anything discussed with the already existing non-classic rules in place will only do the same.

Create a classic atmosphere and let the players decide how they wish to handle things in a traditional manner. You can all show up with 400 people mob after mob for a shot at FTE lottery or you can grow up and rotate things.

Those are the only options that occured during early EverQuest. The fact there's more raiders now shouldn't matter.

[xCry0x]

Originally Posted by Tiddlywinks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Create a classic atmosphere and let the players decide how they wish to handle things in a traditional manner. You can all show up with 400 people mob after mob for a shot at FTE lottery or you can grow up and rotate things.

Those are the only options that occured during early EverQuest. The fact there's more raiders now shouldn't matter.

Look at the current sky schedule mess. There are 10+ guilds now all wanting to do sky weekly and all those guilds could also contest everything outside of VP. A full blown rotation would be completely insane.

This argument is always beaten over the head and it seems like people completely ignore the fact that the progression on this server is altered from classic primarily due to the improper delay between expansions.

The length of time the server has been in its current stage has allowed an excessive number of people/guilds to be able to attempt and succeed at content their guilds would have classically not been able to accomplish. From what I remember on live there sure as hell was not close to 10 guilds that could do isle 1-5 on sky or the current ~7-8 guilds that could full clear sky. This translates into the situation where if dragons were on static spawns you would have this gigantic number of dragon capable guilds waiting vs on live where you had maybe 2-3 who could actually kill the shit.

If there was a 10 guild rotation on track with a static 7 day spawn (getting rid of variance?) then you would get 1 guild kill every 10 weeks... you would also have a mass guild fragmentation as nobody needs more than 2-3 groups now since you can schedule your 2-3 groups to get on. This means realistically you could be looking at 15+ trak capable 'guilds' and you only get a shot once every 3 months.

Last time I said this people argued back that at least under that system they would get a 'chance'. I understand that, but you are also talking about a 1/15 1/15 chance every 3 months on one of the 2 items dropping being what you want. That means in an entire year of doing trak with your guild you would only see half of his loot table (assuming you never get a duplicate).

That said, completely randomizing spawns would not be horrible because it would not allow raid forces to shift based on what mobs are in window. If every mob is always in window you would be forced to prioritize OR be forced to actually be a mobile raid force vs a static poop socking raid force. (I am assuming TMO generally poop socks raid forces at targets.. I honestly don't waste the time paying that much attention =P)

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by xCry0x [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at the current sky schedule mess. There are 10+ guilds now all wanting to do sky weekly and all those guilds could also contest everything outside of VP. A full blown rotation would be completely insane.

So? Then don't set up a rotation. The players are free to do what they want to determine how the raidscene functions.

This argument is always beaten over the head and it seems like people completely ignore the fact that the progression on this server is altered from classic primarily due to the improper delay between expansions

The length of time the server has been in its current stage has allowed an excessive number of people/guilds to be able to attempt and succeed at content their guilds would have classically not been able to accomplish. From what I remember on live there sure as hell was not close to 10 guilds that could do isle 1-5 on sky or the current ~7-8 guilds that could full clear sky. This translates into the situation where if dragons were on static spawns you would have this gigantic number of dragon capable guilds waiting vs on live where you had maybe 2-3 who could actually kill the shit

If there was a 10 guild rotation on track with a static 7 day spawn (getting rid of variance?) then you would get 1 guild kill every 10 weeks... you would also have a mass guild fragmentation as nobody needs more than 2-3 groups now since you can schedule your 2-3 groups to get on. This means realistically you could be looking at 15+ trak capable 'guilds' and you only get a shot once every 3 months.

Last time I said this people argued back that at least under that system they would get a 'chance'. I understand that, but you are also talking about a 1/15 1/15 chance every 3 months on one of the 2 items dropping being what you want. That means in an entire year of doing trak with your guild you would only see half of his loot table (assuming you never get a duplicate)...

Theres a lot of things that make this server not-classic aside from delays between expansions. The players are completely different. We all have knowledge of all the content. Most have done it before. There are more raiders than casuals. The list could do on and on. My point is it shouldn't matter. The players should NOT be catered to. If the players want to sit around in groups of 400-500 and wait for a dragon let them. That's their perogative.

The server is either an honest attempt to recreate classic or it isn't. Classic rule sets were what they were. Any amount of player/staff lobbying to change them for ANY reason (non classic playerbase/understaffing/too many raiders) is not the answer, and can only take away from the final goal of creating a classic server.

It seems like the systems we have in place are attempting to artificially create a classic atmosphere (1-2 raid guilds on top play hardcore, the rest are called "Casual") more so than a classic server. That classic atmosphere is gone, and has been for 13 years, we're not getting it back. Artificial re-pops, raiding rules that never existed on live, and anything else are not going to re-create it. So why now just create a sandbox and environment that is true to what people want, and let THEM decide how they deal with it?

[falkun]

Yup. If Server Staff wants "players to dictate the raid scene," then get out of our way. Make it strictly classic, let the social aspect of the game out. Right now the social aspect is being suppressed by Variance dictating how mob spawns happen.

Make it Classic.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yup. If Server Staff wants "players to dictate the raid scene," then get out of our way. Make it strictly classic, let the social aspect of the game out. Right now the social aspect is being suppressed by Variance dictating how mob spawns happen.

Make it Classic.

Exactly.

[Tiddlywinks]

And honestly, Alarti, the only reason you created this thread is because you know TMO isn't going to want to sit on their ass and track double the content they now do, while at the same giving up on past gains.

You said it better than I ever could when you said that nobody was going to be able to lockdown all the content when Velious is out if there is a variance like there currently is because there are just too many mobs. So instead you come to the forums and try to start a discussion that can offer you a chance to lock the most down you can?

It's people like you, and threads like this that have lead the artificial raiding rules put in place by server staff, and created a non-classic raiding environment.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Tiddlywinks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And honestly, Alarti, the only reason you created this thread is because you know TMO isn't going to want to sit on their ass and track double the content they now do, while at the same giving up on past gains.

You said it better than I ever could when you said that nobody was going to be able to lockdown all the content when Velious is out if there is a variance like there currently is because there are just too many mobs. So instead you come to the forums and try to start a discussion that can offer you a chance to lock the most down you can?

It's people like you, and threads like this that have lead the artificial raiding rules put in place by server staff, and created a non-classic raiding environment.

Are you lost. I am proposing the removal of an artificial raid rule. TMO is in the best position to lock down content that has Variance. TMO is also in the best position to lock down content that doesn't have Variance. Knowing spawn times would give other guilds a greater chance of getting targets. Be honest troll, how much do casual guilds track? Tracking is a completely anti-casual guild dynamic.