The Destruction of Straightness

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by Rhambuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mentioned it being his opinion because thats all any of this is, opinion. There is no concrete evidence one way or the other that homosexuality is a choice, or just how your born. Christians, at least the vocal ones which seem to be most, also share the opinion that its a choice, wrong, immoral, they need to be "cured", and that they will burn in eternal hellfire.

The only reason I tied to the 2 together, is because if you've read root's other posts, he seems to be quite fanatic almost flagellant in his beliefs. That was my opinion, nothing more.

I just want to point out the fact that someone wasn't "born" a certain way, really has nothing to do with whether there is a choice involved with their behavior at a later date. The role of genetics in human behavior is just a small part of a much bigger issue about Free Will.
Considering modern neuroscience has shown that we make decisions before we even think about them; it seems completely unjustified to get behind this magical free will concept where everyone has complete control over all (most, or even any) of the choices they make in life.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ding-free-will

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what point it is that you're trying to make then. The only thing I'm getting from this is that you're trying to claim that having the discussion in general is pointless which could be said about any discussion altogether which inherently defeats the purpose of having discussion in the first place.

the point is that homosexuality being innate or chosen won't change anyone's mind about whether it's right or wrong.

if someone thinks it's right (or at least not wrong), then they don't care if it's a choice -- you're free to make that choice.

if someone thinks it's wrong, they still don't care if it's a choice. they won't excuse it even if it can't be helped.

so determining whether it's nature or nurture really won't have any impact on how society appraises homosexuality. the people who are okay with it will still be okay with it, and the people who aren't still won't be.

[Kagatobs]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the point is that homosexuality being innate or chosen won't change anyone's mind about whether it's right or wrong.

if someone thinks it's right (or at least not wrong), then they don't care if it's a choice -- you're free to make that choice.

if someone thinks it's wrong, they still don't care if it's a choice. they won't excuse it even if it can't be helped.

so determining whether it's nature or nurture really won't have any impact on how society appraises homosexuality. the people who are okay with it will still be okay with it, and the people who aren't still won't be.

Homosexuality is wrong any way that you look at it because the species won't survive. It is a choice. Homosexuality should not be excused. Nurturing homosexuality isn't a part of nature and society doesn't like it. People are not okay with it and they never will be.
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[Kagatobs]

Stop posting in the forums if you don't like the topic.
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[Kagatobs]

I beat up black men for breakfast. They are mostly scared of me because I carry a white stick.

[Kagatobs]

It's true. I am a badass. But black men seem to ignore me when I walk down the street. I will nod at them in a friendly manner but they just give me a dirty look and continue walking away. They are scared of me.

[Cecily]

Biological Imperative. Survive. Reproduce. Pass genes on to the next generation. People get so angry when someone opts out of that hardwired animal instinct.

[Cecily]

Haha wiki, ty for agreeing with me (kinda). "Living organisms that do not attempt to follow or do not succeed in satisfying these imperatives are described as maladaptive; those that do are adaptive."

Gay people are therefore maladaptive and that's why society hates them. Science!

[Csihar]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so determining whether it's nature or nurture really won't have any impact on how society appraises homosexuality.

I'd like to point out that even if homosexuality falls under 'nurture' that still wouldn't make it a choice. Homosexuality is defined as the attraction to the opposite sex.
I have never seen a shred of evidence that people have a choice in who/what they're attracted to. A heterosexual person only has to look at their own experience: You hit puberty, you wanted to touch the opposite sex with sticky fingers. Why would it be any different for gay people?
The dating pool is significantly smaller, it is more difficult for people who want children and the negative reactions to your homosexuality can be life-threatening. Why would anyone choose to be gay?
Explanation given by Christians, Jews, Muslims: they want to sin.

Despite evidence to the contrary and no evidence in favour of homosexuality being a choice I can only conclude that the argument "homosexuality is a choice" is only a rationalization. They negative thoughts/feelings about homosexuality are already there and accepting the reality that it's not a choice would create a conflict. Easier for your brain to resolve this by projecting a choice.

Homosexual acts (which can come from heterosexuals as well) are of course a choice. And a fine set of choices indeed: A) Celibacy for a life-time B) Having sex with a person you do not find attractive

And of course "conversation therapy"...

I do agree with Daldolma that it doesn't matter whether or not it's a choice generally has no influence on peoples' opinion.
I have no problem with homosexuality and the matter of choice is insignificant for me. I even dislike the "born this way" argument used to defend gay rights. It shouldn't matter.

I am curious as to why homosexual acts are considered to be immoral (or bad in some way) to some of the people in this thread. Anything beyond "God doesn't like it" (I know it's more complicated than that, I'm just paraphrasing).
And why do people have a problem with gay marriage? I'm particularly interested in hearing from non-religious people.

The Abrahamic religions do not have a monopoly on marriage and their institutions certainly don't either. Civil unions existed before any of those 3 religions.

Some people have a problem with gay marriage but don't have a problem with 'civil union'. I only see a rather idiotic game of semantics. How does calling it by another name change anything? The act is the same.

I'm going to ignore the religious people that believe the sky will come crashing down when gay marriage is legalized for the next part...
There are 2 types of marriage. The first type of marriage is what the same-sex marriage discussion is concerned with. It is a civil union recognized by the state that establishes certain rights. Hospital visits, estate issues, tax purposes etc. This is 100% a civil rights issue. Religion has no place here and there are no good arguments to justify same-sex marriage being illegal.

The second type of marriage is the 'religious marriage' ordained by God. This is a marriage between a man and a woman and this is the marriage that so many people are trying to defend. What a giant waste of time. No individual and no state can change this. No one has to power to influence it. It's been ordained by God. It doesn't required a legal document, it doesn't require a church, it doesn't even require a priest.

If a man and a woman stand in any random location and promise before God (which is anywhere?) to [fill in marriage vows] then they will married in the eyes of God. Getting a divorce lawyer wouldn't change that. Getting re-married wouldn't change that. The Bible is quite clear on that. The first person who have sex with is also your husband/wife in the eyes of God (which does include your rapist sadly enough).

Two gay people doing the same thing would not be a union recognized by God. Within this type of marriage, the only one that should be important to religious people, gay people can't get married. There is no issue.

Last comment on faggots... it's interesting how at least 90% of comments about homosexuals have to do with homosexual men. It's always about dicks, fudge-packing, hairy balls etc.
Is it really about homosexuality in itself?

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Haha wiki, ty for agreeing with me (kinda). "Living organisms that do not attempt to follow or do not succeed in satisfying these imperatives are described as maladaptive; those that do are adaptive."

Gay people are therefore maladaptive and that's why society hates them. Science!

I figure this isn't an entirely serious response but I'll treat it as such. There are plenty of gay people who have biological children.

[Samoht]

i was at the dog park yesterday, and my boy dog took turns humping each other with two other boy dogs

they totally chose to sin.