Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those are the changes to charm within the first 5 years of Everquest, but after Luclin launch of course. Look at how DRASTIC they are. Wonder why...

They implemented dire charm.

It was an endless duration charm that worked on mobs up to lvl 46, at 59.

They obviously didn't see charm as an issue, or that would never have made it ingame.

Can you imagine how strong a 59 char with a 46 pet is in sebilis, given that the pet will never break? Right.

ps. it also has a -1000 mr resist check.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-Changed Charm spells so that NPCs spell use will now be interrupted once the charm has expired. (I believe the point of this was that people were waiting for pets to start casting a spell before attempting to recharming them, removing any chance of being hit before recharming)

No, this was changed to stop people from starting faction wars.

Faction wars work like this: you charm a caster on faction A, and spam /pet attack and pet off on a mob on faction B, until your pet starts casting a detrimental spell.

You break charm while your pet is casting, this will make the cast land after the pet is no longer charmed, as a result the mobs would engage in combat.

Mobs from either faction could be trained into the fighting mobs, assisting their own faction.

Doing 1 damage to a mob before it died would give you xp from it.

This resulted in bards and enchanters clearing entire zones. PoTactics was very popular, but it also worked very well in one of the luclin towns.

This is classic, lets ask for it.

[Ligma]

Changed Charm spells so that NPCs spell use will now be interrupted once the charm has expired. (I believe the point of this was that people were waiting for pets to start casting a spell before attempting to recharming them, removing any chance of being hit before recharming)

This was because you could make a charm pet start casting on a mob, then break charm and it would agro the mob. Which caused a NPC battle that was abused by pulling mobs of opposite faction into it. As long as you did 1 damage on a 55+ mob you would get full exp.

Those are the changes to charm within the first 5 years of Everquest, but after Luclin launch of course. Look at how DRASTIC they are. Wonder why...

Tbf the whole thing was exasperated by Sony. They put snareable, non summoning, charmable mobs in almost every PoP zone, many that did upwards of 1k dps. Then they release GoD where progression is dependent on a stacked group charming 2k dps mobs carrying through 1 or 2 mortals at a time.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They implemented dire charm.

It was an endless duration charm that worked on mobs up to lvl 46, at 59.

They obviously didn't see charm as an issue, or that would never have made it ingame.

Can you imagine how strong a 59 char with a 46 pet is in sebilis, given that the pet will never break? Right.

ps. it also has a -1000 mr resist check.

Dire Charm also:
-Has a 72 minute recast timer! Something goes wrong, your game crashes, you get kicked offline, your pet dies, you get trained... RIP.
-Wasn't infinite duration at release, but did last a few hours then I believe
-Was dispellable. Ouch, a 72 minute recast being dispellable, lol.
-Wasn't anywhere near as good as regular Charm.
-Doesn't seem like people even used it anymore after Luclin, because of the above. Regular Charm was just way too much better.

But you're right, they didn't see that Charm was an issue, which is exactly what the problem was. Seems like when parsing started to get big in the MMO community all of a sudden charmed pet DPS gets cut in half and they start taking up to 33% of the EXP LOL

[Jimjam]

We know mob atk and ac values were ball parked as there were no live sources.

Yes there are complaints about too many enchanters, but people also complain about their AC not working as well as they remember.

Nerfing mob attack will make melee more desirable as tanks AND reduce the effectiveness of charm. We know mob attack values are best guess and not exact classic.

This would be my first avenue of attack if i felt melee and enchanter charm weren't working classically.

[Dolalin]

My first avenue of attack would be to look for evidence of increased mob resistances at higher (35+) levels, because it exists.

Level 35 or above wizards will find that their spells (Magic, Cold, or Fire) much less likely to be resisted. This effect stacks with the Staff of Temperate Flux and enchanter, shaman, and magician resistance debuffs.

This change was made to increase the effectiveness of wizards at about the level that all spell-casting classes start seeing their resistance rates go up.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_N...rd_Enhancement

There is player evidence of this too in-era, lots of chanter complaints about resists.

Verant, we are broken. We are resisted on EVERYTHING we do .. way too often. How can you crowd control when you get resisted? Not once, not twice but sometimes through the whole fight. THen the only good you are is a target the monster(s) are trying to hit (thereby ignoring everyone else pounding on it/them).

http://web.archive.org/web/200104172...000223-11.html

(2) charm line of spells (3 spells) - Resists are so high and duration so unpredictably short that the entire charm line of spells is now a suicide spell to cast on anything blue or above. NOTE: this line of spells is rendered useless in the planes as even with tashania you cannot cast these unresisted on anything and even if you could the duration would be so short that there would be no practical use.

(7) Mezz and Stun series (3 Stun, 3 mezz) - ALL USELESS in the planes! All become very highly resisted at level 44. I have cast 5 unsuccessful stuns in a row against blue mobs and I am level 44 and have a charisma of 203.

http://web.archive.org/web/200104172...000223-11.html

I'd also like to see our mez spells actually take hold after we tashan the stupid things. What is the point in lowering their magic resistence when all your spells just bounce off? And they are bouncing off of blues and greens! NOT YELLOWS OR REDS! Does that make sense?? I really don't think so.

http://web.archive.org/web/200104172...000223-10.html

The biggest problem with Enchanters is our role is VERY limited in a group. We debuff and do crowd control .. or we try too. Verant continously upgrades the magic resitance on EVERYTHING without THINKING of how it will effect US. Now we're stuck with a spell book full of spells that are resisted constantly by /blues.

http://web.archive.org/web/200104172.../000223-9.html

I love Enchanters, they are a really cool class. But as Verant are riding their perpetual nerf-a-coaster, this time they have left us behind. Steadily but surely, they are either A: Decreasing our power to give other classes more or B: Just introducing more high level monsters on the Planes and forgetting that all of our spells get resisted by them.

http://web.archive.org/web/200104172.../000223-9.html

There's the usual bitching and exaggeration factor to take into account but I do think resistances could use a bump at the higher end.

I think chanter charm power is the result of lots of little things adding up to a big thing.

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is player evidence of this too in-era, lots of chanter complaints about resists.

That's not strong enough to make changes, I'm guessing.

Either the P99 team has pretty strong numerical evidence that chanters really were like this back in the day or they just dig on chanters and are choosing to go with the higher end when it comes to estimating what they could do.

After giving it some thought, I think we're just going to have to accept the situation.

I can do that. Playing my ranger back in the days of POP, chanters were pretty uber too. I still had fun. And I'll have fun on my druid here on P99.

[Dolalin]

As always, it's really tough to get hard numbers on anything like this. Even ShowEQ didn't show raw mob resistances.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you've said yours, but that isn't stopping you either is it?

I don't really get why you keep responding to it if you dislike it so much and think it's such a waste of time. I would feel differently if you were actually contributing, like some of the others on the opposing side of the discussion. Instead you just keep talking about how pointless the thread is but keep bumping it, lol. Thanks, I guess?

I did contribute previously, but realized it was a fruitless exercise when people like you just continue to whine about the same thing no matter what.

You literally came to play on a server that is designed to reflect classic mechanics as much as possible and are writing paragraphs upon paragraphs about how a class needs to be un-classicly nerfed because you feel it was unbalanced in the classic era. I mean...lol...what? Why play on a classic server if you have such an apparently huge issue with how classes are vis a vis one another? If that's such a big problem for you, why not play on a server that goes later into the timeline, such as the Luclin or PoP emulated servers or the TLPs? You came here for classic apparently, which means you get classic.

Quick side note, if you nerf Enchanters such that they're not as great at soloing anymore, their spots will just be taken by Necros. Then you'll say "there are too many Necros soloing everything and holding down camps now! That's not classic atmosphere." Then you'll have them nerfed. Then those people will roll Shamans and you will have the same issue. Point being, the issue that you have, at the end of the day, isn't really with Enchanters, it's that you don't think that various camps being soloed by a given class is classic...and the types of players that are doing that will then just switch to the next best soloing class and continue to do it because that's how they like to play. You may be right that there weren't as many soloers in the classic era, but it's just a symptom of how far we've come in terms of the knowledge of the game...in order to change the amount of soloers holding down camps, you'd essentially need to nerf every class that's capable of soloing well or people will just switch to the next best one each time something is nerfed.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by bwe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

cd288 mad that people are trying to take away his toys

Lol I main a Rogue on Green dude. I have lowbie Mage and Wizard alts along with a low Enchanter who isn't even double digits yet because I'm not sure I enjoy the class.

Tecmos also isn't playing an Enchanter right now on Green per his statements. You don't have to have an agenda (i.e. be playing that class) to realize when something is just simply stupid.