Raid Changes

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Trak was up for over 20 minutes.

Originally Posted by Fountree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Xasten, don't you think there was some discussion about whether or not BDA would go for Trak last night?

Do you think TMO would have left Trak up if BDA was pre-camping on poop mt?

Originally Posted by Fountree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Think you can deduce why BDA didn't bother camping out at Trak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Frieza_Prexus]

Historically, small guilds get targets when they get a head start. Shortening the variance might help alleviate the headache of tracking, but a variance of a few hours will be catastrophic for smaller guilds. Larger guilds can easily prep around a very short variance, and there will be even more camping out at spawns. As it stands, we generally have to mobilize across the world from a central location.

However, repops and variance are two separate discussions.

I submit that (semi)regular repops are the best chance smaller guilds have to obtain high priority targets. Random unannounced repops will simply result in a batphone by all guilds, and the top guilds are clearly better at spontaneous mobilization. Pre-announce at least some (say, 2/3rds) of these repops at least 24 hours in advance. This will give smaller guilds a chance to camp out, choose targets, communicate/coordinate with other guilds and possibly form alliances.

Pre-notice gives people an entire day to move their character into position and an entire day to discuss exactly HOW the mob will be killed (the pull, strats, etc.) The biggest asset, however, is the triage and choosing of targets before hand. Imagine the following:

TMO will attempt to maximize its coverage starting, invariably, with VS and Trak (and Sev if it's convenient). This gives at least 20 minutes to other guilds to drop a target. We will periodically check with trackers the other targets and choose which to pursue.

Our general order of priority (NOT kill order,this is a DESIRE rank) is as follows:

VS
Trak
Draco
CT
Innoruuk
Faydedar
Efreeti Cycle
Severilious
Talendor
Nagafen
Gorenaire
Vox

If we see 40 people prepping for Talendor while we're pursuing Trak and VS, you can bet we'll instead head to another mob. Use the above information to inform your choices. Go for the Freeti cycle. Remember, if you kill Noble you are entitled to first engage on OoA for at least 20 minutes or first wipe.

The point is that with prior notice smaller guilds can prepare in a way that they ordinarily would not be able to. They can organize well in advance.

Lack of organization is the single biggest hurdle for small guilds getting targets.

[Loke]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

[Frieza_Prexus]

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement,

I agree. Let's grab the most popular single issue and push it.

Show of hands, who here supports (semi)regular repops pre-anounced 24 hours in advance?

/raise

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

Truths.

Also, TMO will never agree to a rotation as long as the core is still around that fought to be in the position they are in now. It would be like asking an army that just took over a castle while you were laid up in a whore house if you can now be king every weekend... not gonna happen.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

And even if BDA began locking down VS with server resets it still leaves gore, tal, sev, fay, inny, maestro, draco, ct, naggy, and vox for smaller guilds to at least get one attempt in before a larger guild swoops in after they get their higher priority kills.

[godbox]

there is literally no way that you could make the raid scene worse. noone actually thinks varience gives smaller guilds a shot does it? set pops or varience w/ regular reset would at least give more of the server an opportunity to scramble for stuff while the big dogs figure out which they want to hit first.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

The problem with that is GuildA is completely capable of logging in a full raid force at all hours of the day. Guilds b-z are not lol. Variance does not play in our favor.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Sweetbaby Jesus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Variance does not play in our favor.

i wholeheartedly disagree with this statement, but i've been wrong before. i'm pretty sure Rogean has posted somewhere about this already, i'll direct him to this thread so he can see you guys' opinions as well.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

i wholeheartedly disagree with this statement, but i've been wrong before. i'm pretty sure Rogean has posted somewhere about this already, i'll direct him to this thread so he can see you guys' opinions as well.

Variance is in the favour of guilds who are willing to track mobs for long periods of time and have the numbers willing to be on call to field a strong attempt.

I strongly agree with everything Lazortag said.

/beats the dead horse further

Asher