most underpowered class in game?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why do you think Enchanters are the most OP class in the game?

It is due to their insane amount of utility that allows them to basically do whatever they want. Charm is not the core reason why Enchanters are OP. It is all the other stuff they can do around Charming that helps them with it.

There is a reason why the classes rated most powerful and can do the most also happen to have a lot of utility. Shamans are not the highest DPS class out there, but then can do better than just about every other class when it comes to soloing.

On the bottom end, the classes that are generally considered the worst are the pure DPS classes (Wizard, Rogue, Mage). It's really not that hard.

Enchanters aren't OP because of their utility, they are OP because the raw numbers they generate are better than any other class. Charm, Haste, Slow, Mana Regen. They simultaneously create and prevent more damage than any other class in the game. All their other utility would be almost pointless if they weren't able to meaningfully contribute to the "damage matrix".

Shaman is in the same boat. At 60 they are able to mitigate damage more efficiently AND to a greater degree than any other class in the game (not counting kiting here), plus have efficient damage generation (even if it's not great DPS solo; but giving 50% Haste to a group of melee IS great DPS), plus have high personal mana regen. Their "damage matrix" is the 2nd best in the game.

Wizards are considered one of the worst classes not because they are a pure DPS class, but because they are BAD at doing DPS.

Rogue and Mage are not considered among the worst classes, except by fools like you. Also, there isn't any class that is simply DPS anyway. Wizard has root, snare, stun, port. Rogue provides corpse recovery and sometimes better pulling with Sneak, pick lock can be helpful for a few areas, and with poisons they can actually snare/root/slow. Mage has resist debuff, coth, mod rod (and some other occasionally useful summons), and can tank/root with pet.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters aren't OP because of their utility, they are OP because the raw numbers they generate are better than any other class. Charm, Haste, Slow, Mana Regen. They simultaneously create and prevent more damage than any other class in the game. All their other utility would be almost pointless if they weren't able to meaningfully contribute to the "damage matrix".

Shaman is in the same boat. At 60 they are able to mitigate damage more efficiently AND to a greater degree than any other class in the game (not counting kiting here), plus have efficient damage generation (even if it's not great DPS solo; but giving 50% Haste to a group of melee IS great DPS), plus have high personal mana regen. Their "damage matrix" is the 2nd best in the game.

Wizards are considered one of the worst classes not because they are a pure DPS class, but because they are BAD at doing DPS.

Rogue and Mage are not considered among the worst classes, except by fools like you. Also, there isn't any class that is simply DPS anyway. Wizard has root, snare, stun, port. Rogue provides corpse recovery and sometimes better pulling with Sneak, pick lock can be helpful for a few areas, and with poisons they can actually snare/root/slow. Mage has resist debuff, coth, mod rod (and some other occasionally useful summons), and can tank/root with pet.

Lol so Haste, Slow, and Mana Regen are not utility?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Maybe you just don't fully understand the term. Utility in general just means non DPS spells. I don't want to have to say "CC, Heals, Buffs, Charm, etc." every time.

And I never said Wizards, Rogues, and Mages have zero utility. You just don't seem to understand that Mages, Wizards, and Rogues are designed as DPS classes. That is why their kits mostly focus on damage, while not having large amounts of utility. This lack of utility is what makes them worse overall, and their DPS doesn't make up for it. Sorry.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol so Haste, Slow, and Mana Regen are not utility?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Maybe you just don't fully understand the term. Utility in general just means non DPS spells. I don't want to have to say "CC, Heals, Buffs, Charm, etc." every time.

Those things are mostly not utility, YOU are the one who doesn't understand the term.

Haste is nothing more than a way to generate DPS. Slow/Heal removes opposing DPS. Mana Regen gives people more ability to use their things that either generate or reduce damage. As I've tried to explain to you many times, this game mostly comes down to doing as much damage as possible while being able to survive.

Utility abilities are things that have applications outside of combat or maybe effect combat in ways that are more complex than a singular increase or decrease of damage. Although things like Root/Mesmerize/Stun can still be easily described in pure mathematical terms most of the time, via how much damage they are preventing because the enemy is not attacking. Root even adds DPS because it forces the enemy to hit the target you put damage shield on and allows your non-tank people to attack from behind (Mesmerize/Stun can occasionally "add" DPS as well by preventing a healing NPC from casting).

Since Root is the only "utility" needed most of the time, and so many classes have this ability (every class technically has a bit of rooting ability via root nets; sometimes you just need that to break the spawn rotation of a camp), it therefore makes "utility" not a high priority thing in groups.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a mage/enc duo on cliff golems I don't think I'd swap the magician out for a shaman.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should. Enchanters and Shamans can solo Cliff Golems. Mages can't solo Cliff Golems.

DeathsSuckyMist, you keep showing how ignorant you are at every turn. Even though we've tried to walk you through this in every way possible.

The point of killing Cliff Golems is because you want the loot they might have. Therefore, killing them as fast as possible results in more loot. Mage/Enchanter will get more gains than Shaman/Enchanter. For most situations, this same things holds true: You are trying to get as many gains as possible, in the form of exp or faction or loot, and killing as many things as possible and/or as efficiently as possible is the way to do it. Hence why DPS is King.

Also, your premise is incorrect to begin with. Mages can solo Cliff Golems.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladin is nowhere close to most underpowered.

Strong utility kit. Great tanking. They can lull pull. They can solo better than war/rog. They have important raid roles.

Only kryptonite is low dps.

Paladins aren't needed for raids at all and they suck at soloing, you're going to progress incredibly slow like that. Better to just spend a bit of time getting a group together, same as a Warrior or Rogue. The gains a Paladin can make in the meantime while looking for a group are marginal. Considering their horrendous exp penalty before Velious, it's very much a loss compared to Warrior/Rogue when trying to level, including the contribution to a group. I'd rather take a Warrior more often than not as tank pre-Velious in an exp group, for their superior DPS and inherent exp bonus.

[Jimjam]

Mage has haste.

And can buff other players pets with haste that stacks with spell haste.

Great point you’ve made in support of magicians there!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mage has haste.

And can buff other players pets with haste that stacks with spell haste.

Great point you’ve made in support of magicians there!

It's just for their pet, and not all groups use muzzles. A Mage pet's DPS is not so amazing even with haste it transcends the need for other utility. This is why Mages don't do well at high levels.

Again, isn't it a strange coincidence that all the best classes in the game happen to have a large amount of utility?

[Keebz]

This thread is going well. Just 100 more posts or so from DSM and Zuranthium, and we might finally get to the bottom of this.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread is going well. Just 100 more posts or so from DSM and Zuranthium, and we might finally get to the bottom of this.

I think DSM is good for another 100 but we may need to get a few people to take turns playing his foil.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think DSM is good for another 100 but we may need to get a few people to take turns playing his foil.

Or you could contribute to the thread and help people learn[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That's probably the better option.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or you could contribute to the thread and help people learn[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That's probably the better option.

I don't think anyone's learning all that much when we get caught up in these types of threads. Once in awhile something neat comes out of it, which is always nice. Mostly, though, I think it's just a bunch of us hobbyists back-and-forthing on a subject we all like. Same mechanic by which I've seen bitter, near-violent arguments crop up about things like the precise shade of paint used on some model.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think anyone's learning all that much when we get caught up in these types of threads. Once in awhile something neat comes out of it, which is always nice. Mostly, though, I think it's just a bunch of us hobbyists back-and-forthing on a subject we all like. Same mechanic by which I've seen bitter, near-violent arguments crop up about things like the precise shade of paint used on some model.

Danth

It's still helpful, because people can see the different ways in which people attack the problem. But often times these threads get bloated by unnecessary silliness like name calling or posts like the ones above, which just make it harder for players who actually want to know this stuff.

It would be much better if people only chimed in when they wanted to contribute, instead of just troll. Then the threads would be smaller and easier to read.