How are Bards in the DPS department?

[Diggles]

selos gets faster every level

[Francois]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

furthermore isn't this how TR used to pull VS to the zone and lockdown every mob before rogean banned it? Isn't TMO nuking one of these said trains to break the bard mez what got them raid banned for a week?

Not how you described, and yes.

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Francois [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not how you described, and yes.

ok.... so you agree with me that bards can (and have in the past) mez every mob in the zone if they want....

what are you disagreeing with exactly? I can't see what you're doing other than trying to find any opportunity to call someone stupid without having to explain yourself. Correct me if i'm wrong

[knottyb0y]

Are you talking about bards straight Melee DPS Output or are you talking about bard max dps including DOT songs etc etc?

If you are talking about straight melee dps then you will find their melee prowess slightly better than a caster. Bards have dual wield and I believe they share the same damage table as hybrids (knights and rangers). Because of Double attack and the ability to use 2handers and a myriad of better ratio weapons knights outshine bards by far. Due to weapon selection and dual wield however bards sit above casters (wis and int) in damage output.

At the most basic level you will see damage melee damage output ranked as such.
1. Monk (double attack, dual wield, better damage table at 60, Incredible range of great ratio weapons including 2hb)
2. Rogue (double attack, dual wield, backstab, limited by lack of high damage piercers for backstab in this era)
3. Warrior (double attack, triple attack at 60, decent range of available weapons, can dual wield or use 2handers giving more flexibility in damage output)
4. Ranger (double attack, dual wield)
5. Shadowknight (double attack)
6. Paladin (double attack)
7. Bard (dual wield)

Keep in mind with the right gear and situations Rogues and Monks will flip flop in dps. But monks have the flexibility to use 2handed weapons or dual wield where rogues only dual wield and do not get any rogue usable piercers with incredibly high damage values to balance backstab. Also a warrior and monk at level 60 may be close if using identical weapons, but I would say that monks in general have more weapons with better ratios than warriors at any level and money status.

If all 7 melee classes were using weapons of the same damage/delay you would see the above ranking prove true, though rogues would likely out damage monks. I think though in addition to inherent class abilities melee damage output is directly affected by the number of weapons a class has available to them and how powerful those weapons are. With that said monks in Kunark get the most variety of insane ratio weapons. Warriors would be second in the line thought rogues get great piercers, I don't think anything goes over 15 damage.

Bards value is NOT in melee damage output. So being the lowest melee dps melee really doesn't mean much.

[Francois]

1 bard can't do it because of the amount of resists. In KC we had 4 bards singing the song on top of each other. Even with 4 bards, you still get hit if the train gets big enough. It's 1 song that you repeatedly spam not 2 that you twist. You make it sound like we're these gods that can just mez whole zones at a time, and you're wrong about how to actually pull it off.

I'm just laughing because people here are offering help when they don't know how bards work on P99. It's nice in thought, but you're feeding the OP incorrect information.

And finally, the thread is entitled "How are Bards in the DPS department?". Not "why picked_heretic thinks bards are OP".

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Francois [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1 bard can't do it because of the amount of resists. In KC we had 4 bards singing the song on top of each other. Even with 4 bards, you still get hit if the train gets big enough. It's 1 song that you repeatedly spam not 2 that you twist. You make it sound like we're these gods that can just mez whole zones at a time, and you're wrong about how to actually pull it off.

I'm just laughing because people here are offering help when they don't know how bards work on P99. It's nice in thought, but you're feeding the OP incorrect information.

And finally, the thread is entitled "How are Bards in the DPS department?". Not "why picked_heretic thinks bards are OP".

I never said you twisted songs in order to use aoe mez, I said you CAN twist other songs. And yes, just like aoe in skyfire, once you start stunning/mezzing 100+ mobs, you need someone else there doing the same thing to decrease the number of occasional resists. The fact that, 2, or even 4 bards can even contemplate doing something like this indefinitely is still broken at a raid level and nothing like the way it was for classic. NO amount of enchanters could pull off the same thing, and they would only be able to stunlock it for as long as they had mana, which WAS classic.

my first post also commented on DPS, which was also completely accurate. charmed dps is the best dps in the game and bards are one of the four classes that can charm. that puts them somewhere near the top of the DPS tier list as long as there are appropriate mobs / pulls for them to charm from.

[Snaggles]

Regarding Melee DPS the main-thing to remember is skill/offense caps and abilities.

The bard has 225 for these and no trixy melee skill (backstab, flying kick, crits, etc). Also they lack double-attack which obviously benefits greatly from main-hand damage bonus.

Weak melee dps has never kept a bard down though. They are more a caster in plate armor than a tank/dps.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said you twisted songs in order to use aoe mez, I said you CAN twist other songs.

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you can train a whole zone to a bard and if he knows what he's doing he can keep the entire zone locked down with mezzes (while still twisting a song or two in) if he is competent.

You cannot twist songs and AE mez, the AE mez song does not last long enough to permit that function.

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that, 2, or even 4 bards can even contemplate doing something like this indefinitely is still broken at a raid level and nothing like the way it was for classic. NO amount of enchanters could pull off the same thing, and they would only be able to stunlock it for as long as they had mana, which WAS classic.

Lucy and EQDiva would disagree that it was "not classic". According to Lucy, it was changed from PBAOE to Single on 9/24/2002. Since we are prior to 2002 on our timeline, the song is in line with "classic".

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

my first post also commented on DPS, which was also completely accurate. charmed dps is the best dps in the game and bards are one of the four classes that can charm. that puts them somewhere near the top of the DPS tier list as long as there are appropriate mobs / pulls for them to charm from.

Bard charm lasts 3 ticks, just like everything else. If you think it is viable for a bard to permanently charm a pet, you are crazy. If the bard or puller grabs an add? Great, charm it, but don't keep 1 spawn locked down because you want to recharm a pet every 18sec. For all intents and purposes, I would not include charm DPS into a bard's "typical" DPS setup, but that is only my opinion as a practicing bard.

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You cannot twist songs and AE mez, the AE mez song does not last long enough to permit that function.

fair enough, i defer to your experience and withdraw that point, though i am quite sure i have seen bards twist while ae mezzing. whatever

Lucy would disagree that it was "not classic". According to Lucy, it was changed from PBAOE to Single on 9/24/2002. Since we are prior to 2002 on our timeline, the song is in line with "classic".

I'm not saying the song wasn't aoe during classic, i'm saying it was resisted a shitload more than what it is now against mobs lvl 30+ to make it unreliable and dangerous to use on live. which it was

random quote supporting evidence from zam:

This use to be an AE back around with Luclin came out. Shortly after it was changed to a single target mez, probably because the AE version got alot of resists.

to your next point:

Bard charm lasts 3 ticks, just like everything else. If you think it is viable for a bard to permanently charm a pet, you are crazy. If the bard or puller grabs an add? Great, charm it, but don't keep 1 spawn locked down because you want to recharm a pet every 18sec. For all intents and purposes, I would not include charm DPS into a bard's "typical" DPS setup, but that is only my opinion as a practicing bard.

you don't permanently charm a pet. but even if you have a pet charmed only half the time you're going to be outdpsing most classes, charmed dps is just that good. any bard dps scheme that doesn't incorporate charming is pretty stupid unless there's simply no other way to charm or you are PBAOEing. personally i believe that it should be part of your normal CC routine anyway. 3 mobs into camp: mez one, charm one. 2 mobs into camp: charm one. and so forth.

[Francois]

Did you play a bard on live? just curious where you're getting your information from.