AC softcap and low level hardcap discussion

[bcbrown]

The concern about whether the squelch point is truly only a mob characteristic is a legitimate one. My testing was done on toons who all had 200 defense. Here's the experiment I was thinking about last night when I first read this thread:

First, identify 4-6 mobs across a range of levels. Something like 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and ideally each mob has no level variation. Find the upper squelch point, and the midpoint. This will mean multiple 5-minute fights, each time subtracting 10 worn AC, until you hit the squelch point. Then repeat the same process to find the midpoint.

To address the question of whether the squelch point is impacted by defense skill, repeat for each of these mobs as you level a toon up to 25 or 30, running the process every 5 levels, for every mob of the same or lower level. So at level 15 you'd do the measurements against the level 5, 10, 15 mob.

Now you've got a handful of mobs with known squelch points and are ready to test the existence of an AC cap. Calculate what level gives a Haynar cap at the midpoint for each mob. Fight each mob with a toon at that level, with worn AC equal to the squelch point.

If the cap doesn't exist, the results will have minimal max hits. If there's a hardcap, the results will show equal min and max hits. If there's a softcap, there will be some number more min hits than max hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The concern about whether the squelch point is truly only a mob characteristic is a legitimate one. My testing was done on toons who all had 200 defense. Here's the experiment I was thinking about last night when I first read this thread:

First, identify 4-6 mobs across a range of levels. Something like 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and ideally each mob has no level variation. Find the upper squelch point, and the midpoint. This will mean multiple 5-minute fights, each time subtracting 10 worn AC, until you hit the squelch point. Then repeat the same process to find the midpoint.

To address the question of whether the squelch point is impacted by defense skill, repeat for each of these mobs as you level a toon up to 25 or 30, running the process every 5 levels, for every mob of the same or lower level. So at level 15 you'd do the measurements against the level 5, 10, 15 mob.

Now you've got a handful of mobs with known squelch points and are ready to test the existence of an AC cap. Calculate what level gives a Haynar cap at the midpoint for each mob. Fight each mob with a toon at that level, with worn AC equal to the squelch point.

If the cap doesn't exist, the results will have minimal max hits. If there's a hardcap, the results will show equal min and max hits. If there's a softcap, there will be some number more min hits than max hits.

I will try my test first. Honestly I don't have time to level a character to 30 just to do all of this.

If you are worried about an overlap between the squelch point and the Haynar cap, increasing your level by 1 would show you if the squelch point was 55 AC or not.

If I tested 10 different level 5 mobs, and the AC cap was 55 for all of them, that would be evidence of the Haynar cap as well. This is because the Haynar cap and the squelch point would be 100% redundant if they were always the same value.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will try my test first. Honestly I don't have time to level a character to 30 just to do all of this.

If you are worried about an overlap between the squelch point and the Haynar cap, increasing your level by 1 would show you if the squelch point was 55 AC or not.

If I tested 10 different level 5 mobs, and the AC cap was 55 for all of them, that would be evidence of the Haynar cap as well. This is because the Haynar cap and the squelch point would be 100% redundant if they were always the same value.

Sure, do as you like, I'm just explaining the level of rigor in methodology and experiment design before I'd accept the results as conclusive. Proper science takes a lot of time, and there's a reason I haven't wanted to do this [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For what it's worth, the "squelch point" stuff for me is no more than a working hypothesis, not conclusive. It's the best theory to fit the data obtained, but there's a lot more experiments necessary for it to be conclusive.

Your proposed experiment will provide some clues, but no proof. For one thing, I worry that a single level's difference won't be enough difference to discern the signal from the noise. But if you want to run some smaller experiments, here's what I'd suggest:
First, run parses at level 5 at 40 and 50 AC. If the squelch point is lower than 55 AC than you should be able to find what the value is.

Next, level up to 10, running parses at each level. Run at least 1000 hits/parse. Keep an eye out for what Jimjam noticed, and see whether there's a constant proportion of min/max hits in each parse. At each level first parse at the Haynar cap, and then remove AC in increments of 5-10 until you find the squelch point at that level.

That won't be enough for anything conclusive, but it should be suggestive.

[Snaggles]

Maybe it’s a silly question, but DSM has access to a 60 SK and can even progressively parse by adding gear from his nearby corpse. Arguably knight AC is one of the more interesting tests since they can tank almost any mob in the game (not to mention everything non-raid based).

Is the issue finding a healer to run parses with? Freeport gate guards hit remarkably weak for being level 61. Doubling for 74-200 with a zone line an inch away.

The nice thing is you can always find another person who’s level 60, with a different class/gear, who can hop in for a few minutes of bashing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe it’s a silly question, but DSM has access to a 60 SK and can even progressively parse by adding gear from his nearby corpse. Arguably knight AC is one of the more interesting tests since they can tank almost any mob in the game (not to mention everything non-raid based).

Is the issue finding a healer to run parses with? Freeport gate guards hit remarkably weak for being level 61. Doubling for 74-200 with a zone line an inch away.

I was thinking of testing with my Shaman actually. He has a lot of raid AC gear. I should be able to test if an AC softcap exists, as I have plenty of AC to play with, and a Shaman's softcap is probably lower.

My SK isn't swimming in AC gear, so I may not even hit any caps.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was thinking of testing with my Shaman actually. He has a lot of raid AC gear. I should be able to test if an AC softcap exists, as I have plenty of AC to play with, and a Shaman's softcap is probably lower.

My SK isn't swimming in AC gear, so I may not even hit any caps.

I thought based on the running theory it’s pretty easy to hit the cap. I don’t know stuff about squelches though [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People say 1200+ is the magic number. It would be interesting to see if that’s placebo or measurable reality as it might influence the use of HGL’s, shields, and other items (BP of Eradication vs Vindi), etc.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I thought based on the running theory it’s pretty easy to hit the cap. I don’t know stuff about squelches though [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People say 1200+ is the magic number. It would be interesting to see if that’s placebo or measurable reality as it might influence the use of HGL’s, shields, and other items (BP of Eradication vs Vindi), etc.

Based on the EQEMU code, the softcap would be 300 worn AC for plate classes like Warrior and Knights. I think my SK has like 250 right now. Not saying I won't run any tests, but my SK hasn't focused on AC gear. I think I could hit 300 with sword and board, but I wouldn't be able to go way over.

I can hit around 400 worn AC with my Shaman(no buffs), and the cap should be lower than 300.

[Snaggles]

I’m sure that would be interesting for some. Shamans tend to stack AC to very high levels. I’d hate to dash dreams but better to know if it’s doing something before picking up thousands of DKP of AC gear for a torp tank.

[bcbrown]

Test at 61 AC while at level 5 too. And please run 1000 hits/parse, the fact that the min+max frequency at 23 AC being different from 55 makes me worry the sample size is too small.

Thinking about it once more, I'm very confident you'll find the exact same results at 61 AC at level 6. This is because there's just not many more max hits left. 6-7 of 400 is 1.75%. So I expect you'll see 1-2% max hits and ~40% min hits at level 6 and 61 AC.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Test at 61 AC while at level 5 too. And please run 1000 hits/parse, the fact that the min+max frequency at 23 AC being different from 55 makes me worry the sample size is too small.

Thinking about it once more, I'm very confident you'll find the exact same results at 61 AC at level 6. This is because there's just not many more max hits left. 6-7 of 400 is 1.75%. So I expect you'll see 1-2% max hits and ~40% min hits at level 6 and 61 AC.

Are you suggesting the squelch point is not fixed?

If the squelch point for a level 5 skeleton is 55, it would still be 55 at level 6. If the squelch point mirrors the Haynar formula, then I don't know how we can distingush the two.