Cheating everywhere, GMs???

[azxten]

The entire raid scene on P99 is a joke regardless. Talking about ms reaction times to run to the raid mob on pop. Fucking hilariously unclassic.

Until the staff actually fixes the leveling curve the raid scene will remain and overcrowded unclassic joke. Fix channeling, fix Enchanters, fix all the problems with mana pools, on and on it goes the bug report forum has about 100 issues now which have gone unaddressed for years.

It shouldn't even be possible for 500 people to be max level in classic or Kunark era. It's too hard to level only the most dedicated no lifers would make it to raid level before the next expansion drops and then everyone catches up in Velious.

Fix the leveling curve and return raiding to a classic experience where mobs aren't raced and killed on pop but rather due to the lower max level population it's actually a challenge to raid between expansions. End the zerg guilds full of newb players who absolutely should not be max level and padding guild numbers to trivialize content.

It's basic game design.

[dk0]

I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and fair competition. But unfortunately I'm not sure this research does anything.

People have been using reaction time as a basis for cheating allegations since FTE was introduced, probably even earlier. There are so many variables involved related to latency, packet loss, etc. that "reaction time" can only be circumstantial evidence at best, no matter how convincing it may appear.

Staff can't take action on circumstantial evidence, it sets a really bad precedent that opens the door for tons of abuse moving forward. Ultimately, I think there needs to be a ruleset that innately supports fair competition (or at least minimizes opportunities to cheat), though I acknowledge that's not easy to do.

I think OP's 2 months would have been better spent social engineering a keylogger or process logger onto a target machine (protip: everybody wants to meet milfs in their area).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by dk0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm all for getting rid of cheaters and fair competition. But unfortunately I'm not sure this research does anything.

People have been using reaction time as a basis for cheating allegations since FTE was introduced, probably even earlier. There are so many variables involved related to latency, packet loss, etc. that "reaction time" can only be circumstantial evidence at best, no matter how convincing it may appear.

Staff can't take action on circumstantial evidence, it sets a really bad precedent that opens the door for tons of abuse moving forward. Ultimately, I think there needs to be a ruleset that innately supports fair competition (or at least minimizes opportunities to cheat), though I acknowledge that's not easy to do.

I think OP's 2 months would have been better spent social engineering a keylogger or process logger onto a target machine (protip: everybody wants to meet milfs in their area).

Yup, exactly this. Sadly OP didn't take into account the computer science aspect of the problem. He would need to have all of this data I list below to even begin to have a shot at proving anything concretely:

1. Where does everybody on the line live in relation to the server? The farther the distance from the server, the longer it will take to send and receive packets.

2. What is the average ping for everybody on the line? It is 100% possible Furoar has a lower ping than the majority of players on the server for whatever reason, which is why he has an advantage.

3. What ISP is everybody using on the line? Not all ISP's are created equal, and that may contribute to things like packet loss and data routing time.

4. What is the computer specs of everybody on the line? Framerate will differ between players, which means they may receive an update a bit slower.

5. What monitors are being used by everybody on the line? Same point as number 4.

6. How does the game prioritize and send out packets? Do you even know the rate at which the server sends message data vs. player update data? It is possible the data for players starting to move arrived at your computer before the message data. It is also possible message data gets sent less often than player update data.


Online games by their very nature have these kinds of variables built into the cake. The only way you could really compare reaction times is if everybody was playing in the same room, with the same computers and monitors, and the server was also in the same room. Think of a LAN party.

[zati]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yup, exactly this. Sadly OP didn't take into account the computer science aspect of the problem. He would need to have all of this data I list below to even begin to have a shot at proving anything concretely:

1. Where does everybody on the line live in relation to the server? The farther the distance from the server, the longer it will take to send and receive packets.

2. What is the average ping for everybody on the line? It is 100% possible Furoar has a lower ping than the majority of players on the server for whatever reason, which is why he has an advantage.

3. What ISP is everybody using on the line? Not all ISP's are created equal, and that may contribute to things like packet loss and data routing time.

4. What is the computer specs of everybody on the line? Framerate will differ between players, which means they may receive an update a bit slower.

5. What monitors are being used by everybody on the line? Same point as number 4.

6. How does the game prioritize and send out packets? Do you even know the rate at which the server sends message data vs. player update data? It is possible the data for players starting to move arrived at your computer before the message data. It is also possible message data gets sent less often than player update data.


Online games by their very nature have these kinds of variables built into the cake. The only way you could really compare reaction times is if everybody was playing in the same room, with the same computers and monitors, and the server was also in the same room. Think of a LAN party.

Maybe, but if those questions above were addressed; is it not still saying racing isn't fair to begin with even having /random on spawn? They'd all have to be in the same room jerking each other off for 16 hrs straight for a competitive race to even exist. Badain and Scout were changed to non-classic mechanics (shadowstep on spawn to /random to turn in) due to "actual proof of autofire" iirc. Would the solution be Statue or Dain and outdoor dragons spawning in random locations within the zone or being a /random by guild representatives? I'm totally not gas-lighting *turns on the gas and runs*

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by zati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe, but if those questions above were addressed; is it not still saying racing isn't fair to begin with even having /random on spawn? They'd all have to be in the same room jerking each other off for 16 hrs straight for a competitive race to even exist. Badain and Scout were changed to non-classic mechanics (shadowstep on spawn to /random to turn in) due to "actual proof of autofire" iirc. Would the solution be Statue or Dain and outdoor dragons spawning in random locations within the zone or being a /random by guild representatives? I'm totally not gas-lighting *turns on the gas and runs*

Everquest wasn't designed for this racing system in mind, so yeah it will probably never be very fair due to all of the technical issues. That is what you get when you are playing an emulated server of a 20 year old game[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Croco]

Originally Posted by dk0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Staff can't take action on circumstantial evidence, it sets a really bad precedent that opens the door for tons of abuse moving forward. Ultimately, I think there needs to be a ruleset that innately supports fair competition (or at least minimizes opportunities to cheat), though I acknowledge that's not easy to do.

Yes they can. Staff can do whatever the fuck they want. People seem to think that playing on p99 is some constitutional right and that no one can ever get banned without evidence that's beyond a reasonable doubt (which this most certainly is) and that's a flat out joke. The reason takp has such a great community is they have a zero tolerance policy for fuckery and toxicity and they ban early and often. P99 csr and owners could take more than a couple pointers from how takp has crafted their community.

The one thing that goes unsaid in the video posted by the OP and that goes a long way towards backing up his point and research is that aside from the sample race where kickenit cheated on purpose to present evidence to the gm's every single race video on record where Stunningly is racing he gets off the line first. Every. Single. Time. No matter the time of day, no matter if it's a race on roll or race on spawn. It's not just his reaction time that's inhuman it's also his consistency. It's robotic. Almost like it's not coming from a human at all. No one ever beats him off the line, sometimes he's matched, but never beaten.

[azxten]

Also good work OP but now you'll find that no one cares. There are hundreds of us who have tried to make P99 better but the staff is very insular and doesn't care to make this a community project. It's THEIR world and raiding especially is exactly how they want it. No one knows why they want things this way but it is the way they choose things to operate.

Don't listen to the people who try to tell you that your research and conclusions are wrong. They're part of those who enjoy the broken state of P99 and attack anyone who tries to change the status quo.

[tyrant49333]

Don't make fun of the OPs learning disabilities guys. Stop.

[Samoht]

Guys. Stunningly had 104 MS ping in one screen shot. This extrapolates to mean that every single time he is playing he also has 104 MS ping. And let me make up some numbers to translate this into frames per second... and... oh, look, Stunningly was beat by someone who is openly cheating.

It can't be the unhealthy amount of time Stunningly puts into practicing to get his starts, can it? Also, where's the payoff for all of his cheating? I can't remember the last time he even had an FTE.

In other words, good reaction time off the start does not necessarily translate to a win.

[PlsNoBan]

P99 raid scene being dumb and toxic? That's weird. Not like it hasn't been atrociously bad for a decade or anything