What have we not thought of

[Allishia]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah, the ol' "go play elsewhere, this is our playground" bully tactic.

Did you ever stop to think that for some, the effort is about banding together with your friends, hashing out and executing a strategy, and getting the kill, and not about who clicked on a button a millisecond faster, who has the better raid rules loophole finders, or who recruited the most people with enough free time to muster a raid force at 3am? That is artificial effort created by other players as a barrier to entry, which serves to reduce competition.

Not specifically addressing you because I don't know your stance on the matter, but in general I find it ironic that the same players who whine about wanting pixels to require effort hate with a passion that NTOV dragons are rooted so they have to, as a minimum, put in an effort to COTH the entire raid force into position instead of a handful of players pulling the dragon to the zone for the other 60-100 warm bodies to kill and then log out.

Should it take effort or not? I'm confused.

I like both pulling the dragons cause I made ton of dkp from hub and hall tags / parking pets with my rogue etc..and love the rooted dragons too cause you get to see everything now..

I will say a ton of people quit once they realized we had to clear ntov. But I enjoy pog and sky raids still so clearing is fun to me, love tanking things /nod..

And you can be casual and join a raid guild if all your wanting to do is kill some dragons and not expecting bis loots...don't have to play often, tbh I hardly play much at all anymore, just log in, tank a dragon or two or 3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you can be casual and join a raid guild if all your wanting to do is kill some dragons and not expecting bis loots...don't have to play often, tbh I hardly play much at all anymore, just log in, tank a dragon or two or 3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could also go to a strip club wearing a blindfold.

[Allishia]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could also go to a strip club wearing a blindfold.

So it is about the loot and not seeing / experiencing the raid content then?
Gotcha ! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[mycoolrausch]

Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If there was no effort for the loot why would anyone play or value it? The value is there because not everyone can get it..

They have tons of pay to win / instanced servers for casual people /nod.

I worked hard for stuff I got and I love that and feel I earned it, tracking, leveling bots, etc to get ahead.

Just letting everyone have the same thing with no effort seems dumb and devalues it all. Let's give everyone a trophy so then it all means nothing..cause we can't have people who win, it might offend someone! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The effort required to app to a raid guild, and waiting around until you have enough dkp to bid on something that dropped off a mob someone else FTEd, is no greater than the effort to be in your own guild and wait around for your rotated mob. It's the same rotation. It's just who is in charge and who you're doing it with.

[Allishia]

Originally Posted by mycoolrausch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The effort required to app to a raid guild, and waiting around until you have enough dkp to bid on something that dropped off a mob someone else FTEd, is no greater than the effort to be in your own guild and wait around for your rotated mob. It's the same rotation. It's just who is in charge and who you're doing it with.

I don't think you understand the effort raid guilds put in. It is not comparable to a rotation at all.

But I guess you talking about warm bodies who don't actually do anything but show up for dkp...you get what you put in even inside the guild. People who track and fte have triple the dkp of people who just show up../nod

[Arvan]

Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If there was no effort for the loot why would anyone play or value it? The value is there because not everyone can get it..

They have tons of pay to win / instanced servers for casual people /nod.

I worked hard for stuff I got and I love that and feel I earned it, tracking, leveling bots, etc to get ahead.

Just letting everyone have the same thing with no effort seems dumb and devalues it all. Let's give everyone a trophy so then it all means nothing..cause we can't have people who win, it might offend someone! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What if a group of guildmates and friends who have never done end game classic(ish rofl) velious before in their lives wanted to raid but had wives and jobs and lives… they cant do it on blue or green but if there was a rotated server they could do it and it would also be challenging and rewarding since they have never done it before. And the people who have no real life could play on the competitive server every day. I think its a real good idea whoever came up with this.

[karadin]

IMO the best way to achieve some level of parity is for devs to guarantee 2 quakes and 2 natural cycles each month. Quakes force the hardcore guilds to be selective giving enough room for casual guilds to kill some dragons. Cycle in between allows for casual guilds to have a breather if they wish, or they can use the tightly packed windows to score some kills.

[Argh]

Removing variance (or reducing it to like +/- 5minutes to prevent some cheesing on racing) would have a significant impact on the quality of life of everyone who raids, and people who want to raid.

For casual guilds it makes it possible to compete without needing a 200 man roster so that you can have all hours of targets windows covered, and lets them schedule raid targets, and compete with smaller numbers.

For hardcorde guilds it removes the Mike Rowe-esque dirty job of focusing intensely at a wall for 16 hours and lets people focus more on racing and metas that are actually relevant to gameplay.

For the staff it would ideally (possible pipe dream?) reduce the overall amount of elf lawyering since people aren't investing 100s of hours every cycle with possibly 0 return. At this point you could spend 40 hours writing your elf law complaints and still spend less time on it that you did on tracking 2 mobs.

The ironic thing here is that variance was added with the intent to stop poopsocking (it certainly stopped what was happening at the time), but all it has done is made it so you need to poopsock intensely for the entire duration to even have a chance.

It's not classic, and I'm not sure what purpose it has at this point.

[Mblake1981]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Removing variance (or reducing it to like +/- 5minutes to prevent some cheesing on racing) would have a significant impact on the quality of life of everyone who raids, and people who want to raid.

For casual guilds it makes it possible to compete without needing a 200 man roster so that you can have all hours of targets windows covered, and lets them schedule raid targets, and compete with smaller numbers.

For hardcorde guilds it removes the Mike Rowe-esque dirty job of focusing intensely at a wall for 16 hours and lets people focus more on racing and metas that are actually relevant to gameplay.

For the staff it would ideally (possible pipe dream?) reduce the overall amount of elf lawyering since people aren't investing 100s of hours every cycle with possibly 0 return. At this point you could spend 40 hours writing your elf law complaints and still spend less time on it that you did on tracking 2 mobs.

The ironic thing here is that variance was added with the intent to stop poopsocking (it certainly stopped what was happening at the time), but all it has done is made it so you need to poopsock intensely for the entire duration to even have a chance.

It's not classic, and I'm not sure what purpose it has at this point.

i missed this post my first time through, felt relief reading it so i read the whole thing. Those inclined will poop sock any change or meta, it's their preferred play style. Maybe pick the least worst thing and stick with it.

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Removing variance (or reducing it to like +/- 5minutes to prevent some cheesing on racing) would have a significant impact on the quality of life of everyone who raids, and people who want to raid.

For casual guilds it makes it possible to compete without needing a 200 man roster so that you can have all hours of targets windows covered, and lets them schedule raid targets, and compete with smaller numbers.

For hardcorde guilds it removes the Mike Rowe-esque dirty job of focusing intensely at a wall for 16 hours and lets people focus more on racing and metas that are actually relevant to gameplay.

For the staff it would ideally (possible pipe dream?) reduce the overall amount of elf lawyering since people aren't investing 100s of hours every cycle with possibly 0 return. At this point you could spend 40 hours writing your elf law complaints and still spend less time on it that you did on tracking 2 mobs.

The ironic thing here is that variance was added with the intent to stop poopsocking (it certainly stopped what was happening at the time), but all it has done is made it so you need to poopsock intensely for the entire duration to even have a chance.

It's not classic, and I'm not sure what purpose it has at this point.

Yea the only anti-sock alternative I can think of that'd reduce it would be a zone wide banish when a raid mob pops. And the server could announce it (possibly, not a hard requirement)

Downside would be whoever zones the fastest often would just win the mob (it'd perhaps require a throttle)

2 trackers allows massive forces to be ready to instant engage with COTH, and is a large culprit.