Race and Class counts last night

[Thulian]

Originally Posted by turbosilk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again wiz are king of raid boss dps until Velious.

bosses have 32k hp in everquest until velious does not matter who is king of dps nothing has any challenge at all

[Pyrocat]

Wizards I think were intended as "oh shit" utility, in addition to DPS.

Evac, stuns, and ability to nuke runners down quick. The problem is enchanters exist, and although they can't evac, you won't need to with stuns/mez/charm/memblur etc. Throw in charm and wizards are completely outclassed by enchanters (for group content).

For pure sustained DPS wizards are going to lose out to enchanters, mages, necros, rogues, monks... probably rangers.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Trazic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People often talk about wizards being terrible in exp groups but rarely talk numbers so I decided to do some math.

A 60 wizard with clarity II will regen 33 mana per tick while meditating. Suntrike costs 450 mana reduced down to roughly 400 through specialization. That means they can cast sunstrike approximately once every 72 seconds. 1615 / 72 = 22.4 dps in a chain pulling group in the best case scenario (absolutely no resists).

That does indeed seem rather underwhelming.

Originally Posted by Pyrocat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For pure sustained DPS wizards are going to lose out to enchanters, mages, necros, rogues, monks... probably rangers.

Yeah that's the thing. In full six man xp groups your focus is on mob kill count. Ideally you want to be chain pulling in a full group and the very design of the wizard class does not lend itself to this style of grinding. By all means invite your friend or guildie wiz if you want and top efficiency isn't important, enjoy yourself.

For duos and trios wizards don't really pair well or add enough benefit to the classes that are good at it to justify their inclusion.

That leaves quadding as the only form of leveling in which a wizard truly exels. People get very defensive about wizards as if anyone critical of inviting them just don't know what the wiz spell lines do or something. But its not anyone's fault that this is the game design, and these are the wizard's strengths and limitations.

[DoodyLich666]

How am I supposed to role play a wizard if I am not invited into any fellowships? Gandalf has had a very different experience than Ethelvvulf Magickfinger...

[Gustoo]

Wizards are a mega cool class and one of my favorites. Despite all of this talk. Wizards are awesome.

[Noselacri]

It's not just about the straight math, it's also about application. Doing 100% of your damage with nukes is inefficient in a typical grouping environment. It can be hard not to overkill unless you nuke early enough that you risk taking aggro or use smaller, less efficient nukes. Also, when it's a mob that runs away at low health, there's a lot less value in the last bubble of its health bar because it isn't fighting back anymore. So many classes can snare that "finishing off runners" isn't much of a concern. Early damage is the best damage.

Compared to things like rogues and magician pets who can do their full DPS basically 100% of the time, seamlessly switch targets, never run out of steam and not worry about resists, wizard DPS is just nowhere near as practical. The last one is a big issue as well--in many dungeons, mobs will have buffs from nearby caster buddies, and it hurts a wizard way more if the mob has +40 FR/CR than it hurts a rogue if the mob has like +20 AC from buffs.

If the wizard is nuking every 72 seconds, one resist and he's doing zero DPS for like 2½ minutes. It leads to fights where the wizard doesn't contribute at all, which really messes with a group's rhythm. Melee DPS is much more consistent, even if it wasn't higher.

[Tigris67]

We should just give wizards pets. That would solve their DPS issue!

[Exard3k]

You are just not getting it.

No Wizard casts a spell every 72 seconds, goes to 0% mana and casts again when they have mana for that spell again. Not many mobs live for 72 seconds and you can't guarantee another mob ready for nuking in exactly 72 seconds.

Any rogue will tell you, that they aren't on target 100% of the time. This only happens with an enemy that has infinite hp. There are gaps between pulls and time where you dont want want to go full dmg on the mob. And then the healer is oom/Tank goes afk/whatever and pulls are on hold where casters can med (/stockpile) mana where rogue is idle and a wiz dmg just goes on as long he's not FM. And thats only two variables I presented in my posting above, please read again.

Elementary level maths and an utopian case wont help you here, no matter how much you want it to be.

[Man0warr]

The group meta during Classic era pretty much boils down to churning through masses of blue mobs - ideally with several in camp at once CC'd - with high sustain DPS from melee and pets. Mana is a bottleneck that is best overcome by not relying on it at all for your damage output - Shaman ignores it with Cannibalize and Torpor, Enchanter with Theft of Thought, and Cleric by ideally only using the hyper efficient Complete Heal on a charmed pet or Warrior.

Wizards just don't fit in. In real application or on paper using math. Great and required in Velious for burst damage in Raid situations though.

[Exard3k]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The group meta during Classic era pretty much boils down to churning through masses of blue mobs - ideally with several in camp at once CC'd - with high sustain DPS from melee and pets. Mana is a bottleneck that is best overcome by not relying on it at all for your damage output - Shaman ignores it with Cannibalize and Torpor, Enchanter with Theft of Thought, and Cleric by ideally only using the hyper efficient Complete Heal on a charmed pet or Warrior.

ideal situation isn't what I see here on green in most groups. Only because everyone knows whats best, doesnt mean the group can do it. Shamans dont ignore mana at all on green. Asked three shamans and myself (48 shm), most replies were sth along "lol?!?", so no, Shamans need mana and go oom like every other class with mana.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah you’re right it’s not this easy. Because you’re not adding in the constant damage a Rogue is doing over the course of the kill,

Of course I would do that. But I never made any proper calculations. I just stated that a more realistic approach needs other variables, yours among them. That's what et cetera means.

edit: wizard only does zero dps when he's full mana (maximum amount of dmg stored). Melee dps is always zero when the character in question isn't attacking a mob.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and you’re not dividing the Wizard’s damage by the zero damage they are doing for the rest of the kill.

I do. This is what we call dps. it is damage per second or damage divided by time