Some core issues with antonica in classic eq(why everyone goes to guk)

[tripbunny]

Why not have even ZEM across all fields?

All non dungeon outdoor zones the same ex. 75
All dungeon outdoor zones the same ex. 120
All dungeon non outdoor zones the same ex. 140

[Lone Gnome]

highest zem is unrest, high keep and kedge keep

[loramin]

I believe the devs have explicitly said (although I think this happened ages ago and unfortunately I don't have a good quote for it) that the ZEMs on Blue (and presumably on Green) are NOT classic. This has been true for most if not all of the project's 10 year history.

As I understand it (and as with anything, this could well be wrong, but the devs don't like to talk to us about it to clarify), "everyone" knows the live ZEMs. By using a banned/cheat program called ShowEQ, you could essentially see exactly what they were back on live. So the devs changed them (how much? no one knows).

Perhaps because the decision was made so early on, it radically conflicts with the mantra of P99 ... or at least what used to be the mantra; Green has sort of changed it. It used to be: CLASSIC OR DIE! Nilbog used to say stuff about how he'd do whatever it took to make things work like they did in '99, and screw players, screw their knowledge, and screw their opinions. P99 was going to be classic even if that meant no one wanted to play on it.

But again, in perhaps a preview of what would come with Green, the staff made an "executive decision", and decided not to have classic ZEMs. Again, as I understand it, the rationale was player knowledge: "everyone knows the ZEMs now, and they didn't on live, so we'll change them here to restore mystery".

Was it the right decision? All I can say is I've never once, in the (quite possibly hundreds of) threads I've read that discussed ZEMs ...not ONCE ... ever heard anyone say "YAY, P99 ZEMs rock ... they have unclassic mystery!" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I've never heard anyone say anything positive about them at all really.

It seems to me that if they went with classic ZEMs they'd at least make the classicists happy. If they went with sane/logical ZEMs, that balanced the other aspects (loot, casters, etc.) of a dungeon, I think the vast vast majority of players would be happy, but classicists less so. If they made ZEMs dynamic, based on population or something, the classicists would have a heart attack ... and so would the players that want the "best" game possible, only their heart attack would be in joy.

But keeping the current ZEMs? Does that even make Nilbog happy anymore?

[Wwen42]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I believe the devs have explicitly said (although I think this happened ages ago and unfortunately I don't have a good quote for it) that the ZEMs on Blue (and presumably on Green) are NOT classic. This has been true for most if not all of the project's 10 year history.

As I understand it (and as with anything, this could well be wrong, but the devs don't like to talk to us about it to clarify), "everyone" knows the live ZEMs. By using a banned/cheat program called ShowEQ, you could essentially see exactly what they were back on live. So the devs changed them (how much? no one knows).

Perhaps because the decision was made so early on, it radically conflicts with the mantra of P99 ... or at least what used to be the mantra; Green has sort of changed it. It used to be: CLASSIC OR DIE! Nilbog used to say stuff about how he'd do whatever it took to make things work like they did in '99, and screw players, screw their knowledge, and screw their opinions. P99 was going to be classic even if that meant no one wanted to play on it.

But again, in perhaps a preview of what would come with Green, the staff made an "executive decision", and decided not to have classic ZEMs. Again, as I understand it, the rationale was player knowledge: "everyone knows the ZEMs now, and they didn't on live, so we'll change them here to restore mystery".

Was it the right decision? All I can say is I've never once, in the (quite possibly hundreds of) threads I've read discussion P99 ZEMs ...not ONCE ... ever heard anyone say "YAY, P99 ZEMs rock ... they have unclassic mystery!" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I've never heard anyone say anything positive about them at all really.

It seems to me that if they went with classic ZEMs they'd at least make the classicists happy. If they went with sane/logical ZEMs, that balanced the other aspects (loot, casters, etc.) of a dungeon, I think the vast vast majority of players would be happy, but classicists less so. If they made ZEMs dynamic, based on population or something, the classicists would have a heart attack ... and so would the players that want the "best" game possible, only their heart attack would be in joy.

But keeping the current ZEMs? Does that even make Nilbog happy?

As other have explained I think, ZEM alone isn't the draw. Some dungeons are just not worth the effort. So it's a combination of ZEM design and risk/reward of the zone. IMO, I don't come for "classic" I have nostalgia for the good stuff. If someone made slight changes to the bad stuff, that'd make it even better. Runnyeye being a place to actually go at-level would be cool even if we only went there in 1999 when everything was green.

I enjoy my time on p1999 and I'm thankful it's around. I just had to make peace with the grognard "classic" business of even keeping broken things. /shrug I'm way too lazy to make my own server and also lack the knowledge.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Wwen42 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As other have explained I think, ZEM alone isn't the draw. Some dungeons are just not worth the effort. So it's a combination of ZEM design and risk/reward of the zone. IMO, I don't come for "classic" I have nostalgia for the good stuff. If someone made slight changes to the bad stuff, that'd make it even better. Runnyeye being a place to actually go at-level would be cool even if we only went there in 1999 when everything was green.

I enjoy my time on p1999 and I'm thankful it's around. I just had to make peace with the grognard "classic" business of even keeping broken things. /shrug I'm way too lazy to make my own server and also lack the knowledge.

Eh, idk. I think if you throw a 200% ZEM on something people will definitely populate it. The exception is probably dungeons requiring multiple keys to get through, due to the danger of losing your corpse there, but I think anywhere else people would hang out there if it was in like the top 5 ZEMs.

[Wurl]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It seems to me that if they went with classic ZEMs they'd at least make the classicists happy. If they went with sane/logical ZEMs, that balanced the other aspects (loot, casters, etc.) of a dungeon, I think the vast vast majority of players would be happy, but classicists less so. If they made ZEMs dynamic, based on population or something, the classicists would have a heart attack ... and so would the players that want the "best" game possible, only their heart attack would be in joy.

But keeping the current ZEMs? Does that even make Nilbog happy anymore?

Great post and I agree.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But again, in perhaps a preview of what would come with Green, the staff made an "executive decision", and decided not to have classic ZEMs. Again, as I understand it, the rationale was player knowledge: "everyone knows the ZEMs now, and they didn't on live, so we'll change them here to restore mystery".

I'm kind of confused. Apologies if I'm missing something but the current ZEMs are known. Was that just something people have figured out over time thus thwarting the player knowledge point?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm kind of confused. Apologies if I'm missing something but the current ZEMs are known. Was that just something people have figured out over time thus thwarting the player knowledge point?

I suspect you're being confused by the wiki, which shows the classic/non-P99 ZEMs. For instance, if you are referring to the http://wiki.project1999.com/Per-Level_Hunting_Guide, you may want to read the bottom:

* All experience bonuses are per the Recommended Levels and ZEM List, except that they've been converted in to percentages (with 75 ZEM = 100% of normal XP bonus). These ZEMs are known to be out of date and inaccurate, but no better information exists.

Or maybe you're thinking of the page that note references, the Recommended Levels and ZEM List? Again, if you look you'll see that there's a ZEM section ...

In the old days of live EQ the server sent the actual ZEM values, which were recorded by studious players. These values were used as a basis for the EQEmu numbers, and so are in place on most stock EQEmu servers. These numbers were never known to have changed over the history of classic EQ live.

The developers of p1999 have stated that they will not publicly release the current ZEM list, in the spirit of classic EQ.

The "stock" values given here, which may be representative as a whole, have definitely been changed in some zones.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I suspect you're being confused by the wiki, which shows the classic/non-P99 ZEMs. For instance, if you are referring to the http://wiki.project1999.com/Per-Level_Hunting_Guide, you may want to read the bottom:



Or maybe you're thinking of the page that note references, the Recommended Levels and ZEM List? Again, if you look you'll see that there's a ZEM section ...

Yes definitely have read those disclaimers. But, at least on Blue, if you go to the high ZEM zones and solo a mob and then go to a lower ZEM zone and solo a mob of the same level, you will see a higher EXP gain from the mob in the high ZEM zone. So these must be accurate to a certain extent (at least insofar as the zones in the list that have high ZEMs...maybe there are other high ZEM zones that we aren't aware of for instance).

For example as well, if you're leveling in Kurn's the EXP is absolutely way faster than a zone with like a 75 ZEM on the list. So there must be some accuracy as to those being the high ZEM zones, but maybe the numbers themselves are off somewhat.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes definitely have read those disclaimers. But, at least on Blue, if you go to the high ZEM zones and solo a mob and then go to a lower ZEM zone and solo a mob of the same level, you will see a higher EXP gain from the mob in the high ZEM zone. So these must be accurate to a certain extent (at least insofar as the zones in the list that have high ZEMs...maybe there are other high ZEM zones that we aren't aware of for instance).

For example as well, if you're leveling in Kurn's the EXP is absolutely way faster than a zone with like a 75 ZEM on the list. So there must be some accuracy as to those being the high ZEM zones, but maybe the numbers themselves are off somewhat.

Well so, the P99 numbers did start with the classic number, and that's precisely why the wiki still uses them: many of them are correct.

But some of them aren't, and no one really knows which (aside from extreme examples like Kurn's, and even that no one knows the exact ZEM of: we just know it's "good"). Without ShowEQ (which the staff blocks much more effectively than Verant ever did), it's virtually impossible to determine what they actually are, and in that sense the staff has achieved a victory: there is (some) "mystery".

I just don't see anything else good coming out of the current ZEMs other than that "mystery" though. And I think the vast, vast majority of players would happily trade that mystery for either "more classic-nes" or a better game.