Adding More Noise to the Concert

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by Naerron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Equity of raid targets for all guilds wanting to raid
2. Maintaining competition on P99 that has been a hallmark of this really hardcore community since the start.
3. Be able to create a space for being able to have dragons raids that are all about fun and connecting with your guild.

1. Equal opportunity for them, not equality of outcome. There are no rules saying any guild cant go for any target. Its if they can or not.

On a side note: The meta was trust bust the zerg guilds or root the dragons. Dragons was chosen, Zerg became the meta supercharged.

2. You wouldn't have 2 without 1. You can or you can't.

The previous raid scene was being eaten up by the top two raid guilds, its where everyone went to get their loots. This would not be busted, having 20 smaller guilds was not possible because guild size limits are not classic. Having limits on the alts a guild/specific players have was also not possible. Too much headache, easier to root the mobs.

3. ?

Originally Posted by aaezil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tldr: you aren’t playing even remotely the same game as real velious

On the flipside the players are not the same as real velious. Multiple accounts, loads of level 60 bots etc. The players are not classic nor will they ever be, that cat is long out of the bag. What we consider classic cannot exist ever again, no matter what the philosophy about it is. It was a moment in time.

The enthusiasts here are the ones who played in era. Rightfully so, new kids often can't stand this game and for many it was created before they were born. They have no reason to love this. The enthusiasts know how to break the game, all of the secrets have been laid out in detail.

The other thing I have to mention is competition. Its something of a farce here. I have been in a 'out of game guild' here on p99 for a small time. It was comprised of members of all guilds. My point is, everyone has their hands in each others pockets. Trying to enforce something real here would be met with "No life, its just a game bro" while spouting "Die hard competition" out the other side. It's a joke once you understand this.

The motivating factors for why things were like that are not here.

[Mblake81]

No wiki, no discord, no voice comms (not really) no youtube, no real alt tabbing (at least my new computer couldn't), dial up connection, no batphones. Technology has increased, you can break something that old easier now.

The ability to organize like it is here was only found in very small circles in era, like the top guilds..maybe. I still would have laughed at it or thought it absurd. Any change made here will not result in the way people think it would. It will not ever make things easier for the little guy, it may delay the able for a small time but they will overcome. You might even make it easier for them to stomp you.

Making things 'better' is not always the answer. You can easily move to WoW as that is what that game was designed to do. I prefer the older, kick me in the rear RPG world that is less designed to be a video game to please me or help me relax. A bottle of liquor can do that better. That guy who said 'careful because you might kill the magic' is legit about that. You would kill it for the people who originally picked it up and praised it, trying to cater to those who came later and only because someone else said it was good.

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Naerron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For a long time i've stumped about two very straight forward ways to address this issue. I also think we're thinking if we provide a simple solution (like change the spawn variant to 3 hours) that it will provide with a simple straightforward in game change. But predicting what people will do is not simple and this is not facebook analytics where they have a team of research professionals to test the different variants and their result on the behavior of humans..

So here are my two ideas that I think would work best if implemented together, but could still have a meaningful impact even if only one was in place. I only kept three things in mind when thinking of this.

1. Equity of raid targets for all guilds wanting to raid
2. Maintaining competition on P99 that has been a hallmark of this really hardcore community since the start.
3. Be able to create a space for being able to have dragons raids that are all about fun and connecting with your guild.

#3 Is something i really miss about live i haven't found here yet. On Povar we did a rotation for a lot of raid mobs. If we didn't Triton could've just stopped any guild from getting any VP, NToV/Kael/DN, VexThal, and PoTime loot all the way through those expansions. But, we didn't do that and when it was our weekend in NToV, we'd all get snacks and settle in for those epic crawls and have room for new tanks/pullers to test their chops. It was more of an event than a bodily sacrifice for loot that we do here.

So here are the two ideas that very few of you have made it far enough into this post to read =)

A simple rule based only solution is a tag limit for each cycle/month

Argue the numbers how you like but IMO it's
1 city leader(dain/yeli/KT), (two a month)
14 dragons (all world, max 10 in velious - only get hosh or sev not both)
1 of the following AOW(including statue)/vulak/doze (3 a month)
Tunare always ffa because of the clear means you earned it.


BUT...if we ever seriously consider changing the game fundamentally by timers, I'd argue a better solution would be to add instanced raid zones. All instances would be guild based so they would not require raids and so members of other guilds simply could not enter the instance (yes this is possible). They would have 1 month lockout timer that does not go away if you changed guilds. Perhaps make instance dragons drop 1 loot, open world 3 so keep the value of the open world mobs. Maybe even no Vulak in instanced ToV, i'm sure there are many ways to balance it.

Right now if a new guild actually wanted to gear up together and make it into high end raiding they couldn't unless instead of raiding for a year they spent their time farming to buy raid gear. Then they'd be able to maybe start competing for high end targets, but , there's no way to for a new guild without a core player base of already geared toons can break in as a group.

Originally Posted by Videri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

tru enuf

btw, dear poster I quoted, my goal was not to insult you! Merely to create some laughs.

Not that anyone here is interested in TAKP, but the raid rotations are great there. Each guild proves they can do X content, then they get a turn in the rotation. Every time a guild realizes they won't have the numbers that week or whatever, they alert other guilds so the target gets killed by somebody. You don't get the fun of beating other players (which I know some people want), but you get the fun of killing the mobs. It's still challenging because you have to successfully kill the mobs - several times if there's a particular item you're chasing. This reminds me, I've got another PSA to do.

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Equal opportunity for them, not equality of outcome. There are no rules saying any guild cant go for any target. Its if they can or not.

On a side note: The meta was trust bust the zerg guilds or root the dragons. Dragons was chosen, Zerg became the meta supercharged.

2. You wouldn't have 2 without 1. You can or you can't.

The previous raid scene was being eaten up by the top two raid guilds, its where everyone went to get their loots. This would not be busted, having 20 smaller guilds was not possible because guild size limits are not classic. Having limits on the alts a guild/specific players have was also not possible. Too much headache, easier to root the mobs.

3. ?



On the flipside the players are not the same as real velious. Multiple accounts, loads of level 60 bots etc. The players are not classic nor will they ever be, that cat is long out of the bag. What we consider classic cannot exist ever again, no matter what the philosophy about it is. It was a moment in time.

The enthusiasts here are the ones who played in era. Rightfully so, new kids often can't stand this game and for many it was created before they were born. They have no reason to love this. The enthusiasts know how to break the game, all of the secrets have been laid out in detail.

The other thing I have to mention is competition. Its something of a farce here. I have been in a 'out of game guild' here on p99 for a small time. It was comprised of members of all guilds. My point is, everyone has their hands in each others pockets. Trying to enforce something real here would be met with "No life, its just a game bro" while spouting "Die hard competition" out the other side. It's a joke once you understand this.

The motivating factors for why things were like that are not here.

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No wiki, no discord, no voice comms (not really) no youtube, no real alt tabbing (at least my new computer couldn't), dial up connection, no batphones. Technology has increased, you can break something that old easier now.

The ability to organize like it is here was only found in very small circles in era, like the top guilds..maybe. I still would have laughed at it or thought it absurd. Any change made here will not result in the way people think it would. It will not ever make things easier for the little guy, it may delay the able for a small time but they will overcome. You might even make it easier for them to stomp you.

Making things 'better' is not always the answer. You can easily move to WoW as that is what that game was designed to do. I prefer the older, kick me in the rear RPG world that is less designed to be a video game to please me or help me relax. A bottle of liquor can do that better. That guy who said 'careful because you might kill the magic' is legit about that. You would kill it for the people who originally picked it up and praised it, trying to cater to those who came later and only because someone else said it was good.

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by theonesler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I get that people come to p99 for "classic" EQ experiences (although we all know this server isn't and can never be truly FULL on classic...)

But you'd think 20 years later there'd be some realization that it's okay to also tweak the game to benefit player's general well being and health.

And that lands my plane on the runway of target windows.

I just don't understand how it is healthy to have 16hr or 24hr spawn windows on a server with such high competition and dozens of mobs to contest.

The large windows are also a major culprit in spread out timers when it hasn't quaked in a while because the variable spawn times spread out all the windows.

Why can't we just agree that 4 or 8 hour spawn timers would be so much healthier, still leave pop times up to chance (and thus require tracking/socking), and decrease the amount of quakes needed to keep people more or less happy?

Maybe I'm delusional but every time I think about this "fix" it works in my head. Someone talk me out of it?

And again, I don't really care about whether this is truly classic or not. We're (mostly) grown adults, I don't think the desire to want something a bit healthier for our lives should be lost on most who read this.

Originally Posted by Nuggie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, you put it in RnF where it was destined to end up.

Join date less than a year old and you don't understand how the server ended up this way. You don't say...

The problem isn't spawn windows. The problem is some people get their kicks from feeling superior when they deny other people the opportunity at something. That's what makes their endorphins flow. The spawn windows was a "hey, stop it" from the admins to try to give other people a shot at something.

Back in the kunark days there was a guild that was so on top of things no one else had the opportunity to try a boss mob to learn techniques. IIRC, the idea was to make the spawn window so long no one would sit through it all. Unfortunately some neckbeards are so thick they will sit through a large minority of their day waiting for an imaginary dragon to spawn and hit the batphone. The idea of dropping spawn windows has come up several time throughout the years, the answer from the top is generally something like: you guys(and girls) treat another like animals. You've proven time and again you won't change. Spawn Windows are staying. Same for decreasing window duration.

On top of this, can you imagine how hard some people would have this server on lockdown if they knew the exact second a bossmob was going to spawn? They could be in, kill it, and log off before anyone knew they were there. How does anyone have a chance if they have to actively track for days to find when something spawn? It's pretty tough keeping track of spawn windows as it is. Doing it the other way would be worse. No thank you.

Originally Posted by theonesler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey Nuggie,

Yeah I started playing on p99 at the new year... so my knowledge and experience of server history is very limited.

I do disagree with your sentiments however. I think with rooted dragons in ToV it has changed the landscape drastically, so much so that I think decreasing the windows would be very different from how it was in years past. I believe this because if more mobs had conflicting windows (that were shorter), guilds would have to be more selective with their targets. And that is precipitated by the fact that killing most ToV dragons doesn't take 20 minutes or less anymore. So, it is my opinion that shorter windows under these new rules would actually open up targets to more guilds because it just wouldn't be possible for one guild to go for all targets.

And again, guilds wouldn't know the "exact spawn time", that's not even close to what I am proposing. 4 or 8 hours is still a lot of time of variance, especially if there are multiple targets in window. Guilds would still need to be strategic and selective with where they devote their resources.

And like I said, it wouldn't be feasible for one guild to dominate all targets given the amount of time it takes to down ToV targets. FTE locks would prohibit this.

Originally Posted by theonesler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ha, my thoughts exactly when I read that... so we want p99 raiding to be structured so that is fun/optimal for a smaller amount of guilds (and people) than to try to work towards making it better for more people. Seems like an odd philosophy to take up but oh well.

The MAIN and really only benefit I see to such looooong windows is that it does include non-US based players more. If windows were short they'd probably preference US times most and less windows would work their way around to non-US day times.

Anyways, no one is presenting any convincing arguments yet in this thread, so my opinion is still pretty firm on shorter windows = better for the server.

Originally Posted by Legday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@OP

Staff is on record saying they wouldn't shorten or eliminate window lengths unless the community proves that they can play nice. Even if the raid scene DID play nice for an extended period of time, the staff is likely way past the point of eliminating or shortening windows due to years and years of dealing with adult children.

The context for the current window length is that at first there were no windows at all. If you killed a raid mob it would spawn exactly xx:xx:xx later, just like any static trash mob does. That was insane with click fests standing over mobs (like scout if there wasn't a roll. Then the staff added 96 (NINETY SIX) hour windows to raid mobs. That for sure eliminated any casual or even semi-hardcore guilds from getting into the action. Then they dropped the windows to 16 hours (which in comparison to 96 hour windows seems like a huge favor, doesn't it?) and that is more or less where we have been ever since.

I'm not saying you don't have fair points, but just letting you know the staff already feels very strongly about the 16 hour window being the sweet spot of dealing the community and minimizing the headache.

Originally Posted by Nuggie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From the perspective of a once 2nd tier guild that got stomped every week on every mob during the kunark era before the big windows then as a 3rd rate guild(in a large alliance) near the end of kunark and on into the Velious era with the big windows we were able to compete successfully and kill every mob in the game at our peak. Vulak and ST golems included.

As a side note, I stopped logging in 2 years ago. I came back (to the forums) recently after I heard Green99 was finally going to be a thing and I was tired of fighting cleanly against cheaters in Ark Survival.

My resume aside, server admins have been burned in their efforts to make P99 a reasonable place to play/raid time after time and are jaded to the point where I seriously doubt any petition to change the rules will have any effect.

But to see what's down this rabbit hole for your humor, the closer the spawn windows are allows the neckbeards aOneorter time to have to focus on P99. Instead of spreading them out over the whole week they will super focus on 2-3 days that the spawns are clustered around. Especially when you consider these guilds have wave after wave of characters loaded up with good gear that they can afford to swap 15-20 people mid raid to other chars for 20 minutes to kill the lower tier targets then swap back to help with NToV. Also consider the screen sharing that happens in today's climate. (One person/few people) can now watch all(?) of the spawns in window with the correct infrastructure set up(which skirts the no boxing rule and is -super- bullshit). They have adapted to succeed in this many-mob-in-window climate with minimal effort.

I don't have an answer to fix the raid scene. My only advice to someone who wants to raid would be to join one of the two big guilds, get what you think you need from raiding, and move on with your life. I've tried to be part of the small casual raiding scene and it's largely filled with disappointment if your expectation is to get BiS gear.

[Mblake81]

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[Naerron]

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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ZlydAHB.jpg

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by Naerron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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haha

[Molitoth]

Argue the numbers how you like but IMO it's
1 city leader(dain/yeli/KT), (two a month)
14 dragons (all world, max 10 in velious - only get hosh or sev not both)
1 of the following AOW(including statue)/vulak/doze (3 a month)
Tunare always ffa because of the clear means you earned it.

I've heard that something like this has been proposed in the past, and obviously shot down. At the time AM was getting 90% of the raid content, why would they want to give away free pixels?

That said, I think it could be a good system that allows for more raid diversity and end game content for smaller guilds like Paradigm Shift used to be.

[saftbudet]

Respawn windows are great. The static 24h spawn timers are the worst though. It make certain key names only spawn at the time quake happened. Which lead to all other timezones that sleep when quake happened cannot do it.

[Pint]

The objective isn't to make raid windows reasonable or healthy for the raiders, it's to punish them for not dialing back their autism