RIP Chester Bennington

[maskedmelonpai]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one knows exactly what the person is aware of when they commit suicide except for that person so hard to theorize on this.

no need to know what they thinking. i said IF and i meant it and it true. i not saying it universal.

I also think that any thought about their own death and how it will affect others is so far out of their mind it's just not something they thinking about.

fair enough, it maybe that way for some, but manh suicides are pre-mediated, having been contemplated for months or years. that a lotta time to think about what it mean if you die.

It has to be some massive anguish and sadness for a person to reach a point where they mentally circumvent the innate survival instincts we are born with to end their own life.



This is not being selfish, this is about being at a point where they honestly feel they better off dead.

It's not about others, how it will make others feel, it's all about ending a pain that none of us can fathom or else we'd have done or tried to do what Chester did.

this part almost make me feel liek you trolling :c you said before the definition of "selfish" is doing something for you own gain and above you acknowledge that people who commit auicide feel they would be better off dead and have no concern for others. that is selfish. that don't mean it not sad or that they wasn't suffering.

I don't believe most people have hat disregard though by the time they reach the act. it occur to you before that that you death gonna affect others and the only ah you proceed is if you don't care or if you genuinely believe you not needed and it don't matter to the world if you dead.

[Triiz]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think it's just easier for people to say when someone commits suicide they are being selfish than it is to actually put some thought into the entirety of the situation.

No, it's easier to say when someone commits suicide it's selfish when it fucks over 6 children. If the guy had such a terrible life, maybe he shouldn't have continuously produced children.

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People do not commit suicide because they want to die, they do it because they want to no longer feel pain. I read this once, and I think this is exactly true.

You realize this is basically the definition of selfish right? He no longer wants to feel pain, so he end kills himself ensuring his children a lifetime of pain. How can that be described as anything but selfish?

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by maskedmelonpai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this part almost make me feel liek you trolling :c you said before the definition of "selfish" is doing something for you own gain and above you acknowledge that people who commit auicide feel they would be better off dead and have no concern for others. that is selfish. that don't mean it not sad or that they wasn't suffering.

Why would I troll about this? Maybe I am not clear in explaining my thoughts on it well.

My point is I believe when someone commits suicide they lack the ability to even begin considering other peoples thoughts or feelings, it's not due to some conscious effort on their part to ignore how others feel it's a matter of internal and mental anguish that clouds and destroys any chance of them being able to consider such details.

If a person consciously thought to themselves about how their death would negatively impact everyone else in the world, thought to themselves who cares, and really believed in their mind that their death would bring them some sort of personal gain then i would say yes that person is being selfish. I just find it impossible that someone on the brink of suicide has the healthy normal thought process to put all of that into perspective.

As for contemplating suicide for years, planning it etc., I think it's more of a matter of each thought or attempt being it's own separate mental journey in itself. The mood lifts, they reutrn back to "normal" healthy thinking and the thoughts of suicide leave. when the mood or thoughts come back, it's just like starting on a new hellish trip and has nothing to do with past episodes of suicidal thoughts or attempts.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Triiz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, it's easier to say when someone commits suicide it's selfish when it fucks over 6 children. If the guy had such a terrible life, maybe he shouldn't have continuously produced children.



You realize this is basically the definition of selfish right? He no longer wants to feel pain, so he end kills himself ensuring his children a lifetime of pain. How can that be described as anything but selfish?

You are talking about mental illness, and there's a difference between a mentally sound person making cognitive decisions that are logical and someone that is clinically depressed who commits suicide.

When he killed himself, I would gather Chester was not of sound mind or thinking as you and I are now.

[loramin]

People do not kill themselves without compounding factors. Either your brain is physically sick, or it was broken by the environment (eg. being gay in a town where everyone hates gays). Suicide is a symptom of mental illness, the same way your face freezing is a symptom of a stroke.

Chester, Robin Williams, Marilyn Monroe, and almost all other famous suicide victims obviously had nothing immediate in their life causing depression: that basically guarantees that they either had a mental illness or had such a troubling childhood that they were damaged beyond repair.

Either way, we should feel sorry for them the same way we feel sorry for a cancer victim: both die because of an illness (and in both cases it's an illness that can either be inherited or gained through shit that happened to you in life). It's not "their choice", because by definition if your brain (the thing making choices) isn't working properly then you obviously can't make a true choice.

[fash]

I agree. Suicide victims have no agency.

[maskedmelonpai]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why would I troll about this? Maybe I am not clear in explaining my thoughts on it well.

My point is I believe when someone commits suicide they lack the ability to even begin considering other peoples thoughts or feelings, it's not due to some conscious effort on their part to ignore how others feel it's a matter of internal and mental anguish that clouds and destroys any chance of them being able to consider such details.

If a person consciously thought to themselves about how their death would negatively impact everyone else in the world, thought to themselves who cares, and really believed in their mind that their death would bring them some sort of personal gain then i would say yes that person is being selfish. I just find it impossible that someone on the brink of suicide has the healthy normal thought process to put all of that into perspective.

As for contemplating suicide for years, planning it etc., I think it's more of a matter of each thought or attempt being it's own separate mental journey in itself. The mood lifts, they reutrn back to "normal" healthy thinking and the thoughts of suicide leave. when the mood or thoughts come back, it's just like starting on a new hellish trip and has nothing to do with past episodes of suicidal thoughts or attempts.

im sorry, I didn't think you'd be trolling just felt that way, because i didn't quite follow. Ty for expanding ^^ I think we mostly agree. it an interesting perspective though on it being more impulsive. I sure it that way for some, but it not for others. but even for those who it not impulsive, i don't think it generally selfish, I think they just made it past the final obstacle by reasoning that they not needed. everyone needed or can be needed though. just not everyone realize it.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by maskedmelonpai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im sorry, I didn't think you'd be trolling just felt that way, because i didn't quite follow. Ty for expanding ^^ I think we mostly agree. it an interesting perspective though on it being more impulsive. I sure it that way for some, but it not for others. but even for those who it not impulsive, i don't think it generally selfish, I think they just made it past the final obstacle by reasoning that they not needed. everyone needed or can be needed though. just not everyone realize it.

yeahhh, that's a good word for it. Impulsive. that's how I view it. I mean sure, these periods of depression can be for days or even weeks etc., but I really think each manic period is its own trip so-to-speak.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by fash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. Suicide victims have no agency.

Can't tell if this is flippant or serious, but in case it's the former I'll just put it like this: where does agency come from? The brain right? And the brain is just an organ, the same as your heart or lungs.

If your lungs aren't working properly because you're sick or because you're drowning, you can't breath. No one blames lung cancer victims for having trouble breathing.

Similarly, if the organ responsible for making choices isn't working properly then you're going to have less agency, just like someone with a collapsed lung has less breath. Blaming someone for dying from a mental illness just means you are denying that the brain is an organ which can get sick the same as your heart or lungs.

[maskedmelonpai]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't tell if this is flippant or serious, so I'll just put it like this: where does agency come from? The brain right? And the brain is just an organ, the same as your heart or lungs.

If your lungs aren't working properly because you're sick or because you're drowning, you can't breath. No one blames lung cancer victims for having trouble breathing.

Similarly, if the organ responsible for making choices isn't working properly then you're going to have less agency, just like someone with a collapsed lung has less breath. Blaming someone for dying from a mental illness is as stupid as blaming someone for dying from a physical illness.

this a interesting perspective. i question though how many have impaired decision making. it a matter of perspective. they just got a particularly dismal one and one that not easily righted.

it a very good point that if you brain not working you have less agency. this a point lotta people just don't get. hurr willpower! if you not in control you thoughts it difficult to direct you action. I not thoughts about it with regard to suicide though. gonna hafta think on it more.