MIN/MAXING A ROGUE'S GLOVE SLOT

[EdTuBrutus]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not according to Brad.

McQuaid said that Max and Average Damage are increased by Str. So did I. There is no conflict there.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not how a bell curve works at all. You cannot just increase one end of it without adjusting the rest of the graph. The center point does move by raising the max.

No, that's how a NORMAL Distribution works. As I explained, it is not a Normal Distribution because the high point DOES NOT CHANGE, and CANNOT CHANGE with increased Str. All Str does is skew a tiny portion of the distribution.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But in the end, you do admit that there is an increase in DPS, and you just keep interjecting snide comments for the purpose of being rude on the Internet.

Also, all of this is further nullified by the fact that you keep focusing on auto attacks rather than backstabs, which have significantly increased damage from raising STR.

I said that Str increased damage from my first post in this thread - it's just not meaningful. I've already stated before in this thread that BS gets a little more benefit from Str. Unfortunately, its still a relatively small increase in overall damage but it is more meaningful than normal melee.

[Samoht]

Are you not familiar with min/maxing? It's even in the title of this thread. It means doing everything you can to increase the power of your character, even when the difference is small. Ultimately, there is still a difference because a lot of small differences eventually mean a significant difference.

As a result, STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Just like wearing a separate haste item from your epic is beneficial as of right now because epic haste is bugged on P99 and not correctly affecting the timer on special attacks.

You might look at it and say "it only negligibly affects backstab damage and doesn't affect auto attacks, so I'm not going to invest money in a separate haste item." Well then you're not a min/maxer, even though wearing separate haste would be beneficial.

Just like STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

[EdTuBrutus]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you not familiar with min/maxing? It's even in the title of this thread. It means doing everything you can to increase the power of your character, even when the difference is small. Ultimately, there is still a difference because a lot of small differences eventually mean a significant difference.

As a result, STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Just like wearing a separate haste item from your epic is beneficial as of right now because epic haste is bugged on P99 and not correctly affecting the timer on special attacks.

You might look at it and say "it only negligibly affects backstab damage and doesn't affect auto attacks, so I'm not going to invest money in a separate haste item." Well then you're not a min/maxer, even though wearing separate haste would be beneficial.

Just like STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

You can't compare different things to try and prove your incorrect point.

The thread was started by a 23 Rogue, at every single stage of progression, AC is more valuable to a Rogue than Str. AC offers a meaningful, viable benefit at all levels while Str offers much less. The tiny benefit from huge amounts of Str is nothing compared to taking less damage when you are being hit, having the flexibility to tank or off tank without being hurt, being able to commence autoattack at the earliest moment without significant damage if the first Evade fails and the ability to solo efficiently up to high levels.

[Jimjam]

I suggest Borgnach find some gloves with good charisma. Pick pocket is the primary ability of rogues, and he wants to ensure he gets the best prices when he fences his 'acquired goods'.

 

these don't exist. I understand the quandary now.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't compare different things to try and prove your incorrect point.

The thread was started by a 23 Rogue, at every single stage of progression, AC is more valuable to a Rogue than Str. AC offers a meaningful, viable benefit at all levels while Str offers much less. The tiny benefit from huge amounts of Str is nothing compared to taking less damage when you are being hit, having the flexibility to tank or off tank without being hurt, being able to commence autoattack at the earliest moment without significant damage if the first Evade fails and the ability to solo efficiently up to high levels.

Now who is comparing something different to prove an incorrect point? The title of this thread includes the words "min/max." The point you're trying to make is that STR doesn't have enough value to you to quantify investing heavily into it. To everybody who is actually going to min/max, the stats they're going to invest in are STR/STA/HP/MR, because those are the most important stats to them, as a min/max rogue.

The point you're trying to make is completely off target. Quit bringing up red herrings.

STR has high value to a Rogue. If it doesn't have high value to you, you're just a bad Rogue.

[EdTuBrutus]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now who is comparing something different to prove an incorrect point? The title of this thread includes the words "min/max." The point you're trying to make is that STR doesn't have enough value to you to quantify investing heavily into it. To everybody who is actually going to min/max, the stats they're going to invest in are STR/STA/HP/MR, because those are the most important stats to them, as a min/max rogue.

The point you're trying to make is completely off target. Quit bringing up red herrings.

STR has high value to a Rogue. If it doesn't have high value to you, you're just a bad Rogue.

It's hard given you've now had a full explanation of why Str does not give a meaningful benefit but still refuse to believe. I can understand why you're stuck in denial, the chances are you've spent huge amounts of time and effort on Str builds for various characters if you've been around for 5 years.

Unfortunately the amount of time you have wasted and the huge inefficiency of a Str build over an AC build doesn't change the facts. The EQ mechanic does not support Str as a Min/Max option for a Rogue who is levelling (and in a lot of end game circumstances. although then it will generally be HP or Resists that are the priority).

A Str build Rogue, levels more slowly, is less flexible, cannot solo and is a drain on group resources over an AC build Rogue. That's just how the game works, whether you like it or not.

[Samoht]

This is about min/max. The point of min/max is to always assume optimal circumstances, and you will never get hit under optimal circumstances. Never. AC is all but useless to a min/max rogue. Yes it is nice to have, and yes the higher AC piece might be selected between two otherwise similar pieces of gear, but the focus is always going to go on like this:

1) STR up to 255
2) STA up to 200 and then as much HP as possible
3) MR for most dragon fights
4) other resists/STA up to 255

The rest of your post is opinion, and most of it is not even backed up with facts. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You cannot even cite any sources. I have proof. I have quotes from the original EQ developer that actually contradict a lot of the things you've said. And you have the nerve to say I'm in denial? You just can't face the fact that you've been wrong about this for the last 17 years. I'll bet you've never even played a high-end raiding Rogue.

[EdTuBrutus]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is about min/max. The point of min/max is to always assume optimal circumstances, and you will never get hit under optimal circumstances. Never. AC is all but useless to a min/max rogue. Yes it is nice to have, and yes the higher AC piece might be selected between two otherwise similar pieces of gear, but the focus is always going to go on like this:

1) STR up to 255
2) STA up to 200 and then as much HP as possible
3) MR for most dragon fights
4) other resists/STA up to 255

The rest of your post is opinion, and most of it is not even backed up with facts. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You cannot even cite any sources. I have proof. I have quotes from the original EQ developer that actually contradict a lot of the things you've said. And you have the nerve to say I'm in denial? You just can't face the fact that you've been wrong about this for the last 17 years. I'll bet you've never even played a high-end raiding Rogue.

Min/Max is NOT about ideal circumstances. Min/Max is about efficiency in real game encounters. You can't even get that right.

You've provided no proof. As I explained the parsing was done 16 years ago and it no longer exists. It was comprehensive and I'm sure there are enough people around who remember it. If you want to go and do the thousands of hours of parsing that the Steel Warriors did, be my guest.

Let's clarify again. McQuaid said "Str increases Max and Average damage". I say "Str increases Max and Average damage". You linked a Wiki article with an equation for how Max damage changes. I told you that Max damage changes.

What you've singularly failed to do is provide any explanation for why your Modal damage does not change with more Str and no remotely plausible way for the increase in Max damage to provide a meaningful increase in DPS when your Modal damage does not change. You seem to have a mental block about the topic.

You're giving people bad advice based on a complete lack of understanding of how a statistical distribution works.

That's a problem for anyone who mistakes your input for actual reliable information. Which is a shame because the game mechanic is pretty easy to understand if it were not for those who are deliberately refusing to accept how it works.

[Samoht]

^ never played a rogue

[Samoht]

Just for reference, here's the quote again to the thing you originally said:

Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stats in EQ are not meaningful. The combat mechanic makes very little reference to Stats. Stacking Str, Dex or Agi will not make a meaningful difference to how your character performs.

Getting STR to 255 will make a meaningful difference to you as a Rogue. It will increase your DPS. That is going to almost always be your only role in a group or raid.

Sometimes you will have to CR or open a door, but that really has nothing to do with your stats.

You are here to do damage, and STR will increase your damage. STR is most beneficial to have capped. Sure, the easiest way to continue to DPS is to survive, therefore survival stats are also important. And you will also often face AE damage and AE fears, but you will have to plan for those for the situation at hand. That's why it's also going to be important to have STA/HP, MR, and resist sets. Being prepared for those situations will help you excel at this game.

But for most tank and spank fights, and for most group situations, you will not take any damage. The only stats that will matter are the ratio of your weapons, your haste, and your STR. Everything else is going to be secondary. Even in fights with rampage and fights with adds, it will still be your role to DPS. Never to tank. Rampage and adds are going to be planned for and dealt with. In groups, you will overcome those situations by outdamaging any threat. Not micromanaging their damage done to you. Tanks have tools to deal with that. Healers have tools to deal with that. CC classes have tools to deal with that. Even you as a Rogue have tools to deal with that. You're never going to be asked to tank or off-tank in a group. If you think you're off-tanking, you're probably just pissing the CCer off. Stop it.

Honestly, no amount of straw men or red herrings are going to change that. STR is still beneficial because it increases your damage done. That's the role Rogues play in this game. You just need to survive as long as you can while doing as much damage as possible

And STR does help with that. It's a fact.

Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Min/Max is NOT about ideal circumstances. Min/Max is about efficiency in real game encounters. You can't even get that right.

Also, this is so inherently wrong that it's not funny. You might speak like an educated statistician, but a gamer you are not. And by your posts, I can tell that you've never played a Rogue in an MMO.

Stack AC for min/max.... LOL. This isn't Rift.