Twinkage: Warrior Advice

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Fawqueue [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's another question, related to something also mentioned in this thread. I know that Ogre is considered the ideal race by most folks, but what is considered the ideal way to spend those 25 starting points? My friend had made his twink a barbarian (I argued for Ogre, but he didn't like the "feel"). He threw all 25 points into stamina. Would that still be the way to go if I could convince him to reroll and Ogre? Or should it be a split, maybe tossing some into agi/dex to compensate for the lower Ogre stats?

As far as I am concerned, the best racial available to warriors before Kunark is slam. So, any large race will do. Interrupting casters is huge in any xp group, and absolutely critical if you have any illusions of soloing a caster mob that still grants you xp.

Frontal stun is nice, but I don't think it is any better than troll regen. Barbarian faction is pretty nice too if you like to travel much... you know, since you have no sneak or hide or invis gear available as a warrior (yet, anyway). Ogres will certainly have the most hp until Velious is around and other races can start to cap stamina without sacrificing a ton. However, the real secret is, until Velious... it isn't a big deal. All warriors will be over 3000hp at 50 with good gear and buffs, many will clear 3500. This is more than enough hp to make CHs mana efficient, and no fight in classic lasts long enough that mana pools are a consideration [unless Vox is bugged and melee push is turned off =)]. I'd say, make a barb, ogre, or troll and drop 5 sta or 5 agi and the rest in dex.

[azeth]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and the rest in dex.

If you're a casual player who foresees yourself unable to compensate for low dex with good gear, then you probably will be best off dropping all points into DEX. Those extra 4-5 Obisidian Shatter procs may be the difference between "You have gained group experience!!" and a heady CR.

[Noleafclover]

I like stun immunity 'cause getting stunned and losing aggro instead of getting in more swings/procs is bad. But yeah - slam is more important. Solid hate and good for casters. So just a race that gets that (troll, ogre, barb? imo) is not going to be severely handicapped.

Also, ogre stats are solid on all fronts. Yeah though, you might not want to do 25 in sta at this point, with classic on the wane, and go for dex or agi (imo dex, since you only need the agi from djarn's to get past whatever number is the major avoidance hit).

[Dantes]

There's also a patch post-kunark that allows Warriors to taunt mobs up to 5 levels higher than they are. Proc is not the only method of maintaining aggro at that point. If I weren't concerned about STA, I'd put points in AGI over DEX for more AC. There's tons of DEX increasing items in the game, and even with only 100 DEX the proc rate seems extremely high. 25 starting points in DEX just seems like a permanent solution to a temporary problem, you'll never get those back.

[Noselacri]

Originally Posted by Dantes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's also a patch post-kunark that allows Warriors to taunt mobs up to 5 levels higher than they are. Proc is not the only method of maintaining aggro at that point. If I weren't concerned about STA, I'd put points in AGI over DEX for more AC. There's tons of DEX increasing items in the game, and even with only 100 DEX the proc rate seems extremely high. 25 starting points in DEX just seems like a permanent solution to a temporary problem, you'll never get those back.

Er... do you know how taunt works? It doesn't let you hold aggro, it simply allows you the possibility of taking it if someone else has it. Taunt does not build hate, using it while you have aggro does nothing, and it is in no way a substitute for proccing weapons. I'll say it again: you cannot tank effectively without aggro-proc weapons. Taunt is almost worthless on its own, and if someone has taken aggro from you by doing higher DPS (as any DPS class will consistently do) you cannot get by with taunt. Even if it succeeds, you will have aggro for one second until their superior DPS catches up again. The only way for a warrior to tank with non-proccing weapons is to allow him such a long build-up time where noone else engages that he actually builds up enough hate to make up for the superior hate generation of all the other classes throughout the rest of the fight. Needless to say, this will take so long that it barely works, the warrior would have to stand there and wail on the mob for dozens of seconds before anyone else can engage. Not all classes have aggro dump abilities, and even those that do cannot rely on them consistently, especially not with a tank whose sole means of hate generation is his physical DPS. The only thing taunt does is place you one point above the highest person on the mob's hate list, and it doesn't succeed very reliably against reds (and not at all until level 60).

As for agility, the stat is useless as long as it's not under 75. Agility returns 1 AC per 4 stat points, so those 25 points in agility will yield you a single-digit amount of AC. Putting points in this stat is only marginally less wasteful than putting them in the caster stats. The only sensible choices are stam and dex, and if you have any intentions of getting high-end gear, dex becomes much better in the end as stam is completely maxable in the two expansions whereas dex is far more difficulty if not impossible to max. It affects both proc rate and crit chance, so it's very important to warriors. Stamina is slightly better until it maxes out and then becomes a complete waste of stats unless you made a wood elf warrior or something ridiculous like that. The fact of the matter is that going the stam way means you'll effectively have lost 25 points in the end, while going dex does not. It's simple logic that dex is superior in the long run, and perfectly adequate even before then. I ultimately depends on your goals, but arguing that stamina is always better is silly.

[purist]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Er... do you know how taunt works? It doesn't let you hold aggro, it simply allows you the possibility of taking it if someone else has it. Taunt does not build hate, using it while you have aggro does nothing, and it is in no way a substitute for proccing weapons. I'll say it again: you cannot tank effectively without aggro-proc weapons. Taunt is almost worthless on its own, and if someone has taken aggro from you by doing higher DPS (as any DPS class will consistently do) you cannot get by with taunt. Even if it succeeds, you will have aggro for one second until their superior DPS catches up again. The only way for a warrior to tank with non-proccing weapons is to allow him such a long build-up time where noone else engages that he actually builds up enough hate to make up for the superior hate generation of all the other classes throughout the rest of the fight. Needless to say, this will take so long that it barely works, the warrior would have to stand there and wail on the mob for dozens of seconds before anyone else can engage. Not all classes have aggro dump abilities, and even those that do cannot rely on them consistently, especially not with a tank whose sole means of hate generation is his physical DPS. The only thing taunt does is place you one point above the highest person on the mob's hate list, and it doesn't succeed very reliably against reds (and not at all until level 60).

As for agility, the stat is useless as long as it's not under 75. Agility returns 1 AC per 4 stat points, so those 25 points in agility will yield you a single-digit amount of AC. Putting points in this stat is only marginally less wasteful than putting them in the caster stats. The only sensible choices are stam and dex, and if you have any intentions of getting high-end gear, dex becomes much better in the end as stam is completely maxable in the two expansions whereas dex is far more difficulty if not impossible to max. It affects both proc rate and crit chance, so it's very important to warriors. Stamina is slightly better until it maxes out and then becomes a complete waste of stats unless you made a wood elf warrior or something ridiculous like that. The fact of the matter is that going the stam way means you'll effectively have lost 25 points in the end, while going dex does not. It's simple logic that dex is superior in the long run, and perfectly adequate even before then. I ultimately depends on your goals, but arguing that stamina is always better is silly.

This man speaks the truth.

[Dantes]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Er... do you know how taunt works? It doesn't let you hold aggro, it simply allows you the possibility of taking it if someone else has it. Taunt does not build hate, using it while you have aggro does nothing, and it is in no way a substitute for proccing weapons. I'll say it again: you cannot tank effectively without aggro-proc weapons. Taunt is almost worthless on its own, and if someone has taken aggro from you by doing higher DPS (as any DPS class will consistently do) you cannot get by with taunt. Even if it succeeds, you will have aggro for one second until their superior DPS catches up again. The only way for a warrior to tank with non-proccing weapons is to allow him such a long build-up time where noone else engages that he actually builds up enough hate to make up for the superior hate generation of all the other classes throughout the rest of the fight. Needless to say, this will take so long that it barely works, the warrior would have to stand there and wail on the mob for dozens of seconds before anyone else can engage. Not all classes have aggro dump abilities, and even those that do cannot rely on them consistently, especially not with a tank whose sole means of hate generation is his physical DPS. The only thing taunt does is place you one point above the highest person on the mob's hate list, and it doesn't succeed very reliably against reds (and not at all until level 60).

As for agility, the stat is useless as long as it's not under 75. Agility returns 1 AC per 4 stat points, so those 25 points in agility will yield you a single-digit amount of AC. Putting points in this stat is only marginally less wasteful than putting them in the caster stats. The only sensible choices are stam and dex, and if you have any intentions of getting high-end gear, dex becomes much better in the end as stam is completely maxable in the two expansions whereas dex is far more difficulty if not impossible to max. It affects both proc rate and crit chance, so it's very important to warriors. Stamina is slightly better until it maxes out and then becomes a complete waste of stats unless you made a wood elf warrior or something ridiculous like that. The fact of the matter is that going the stam way means you'll effectively have lost 25 points in the end, while going dex does not. It's simple logic that dex is superior in the long run, and perfectly adequate even before then. I ultimately depends on your goals, but arguing that stamina is always better is silly.

As for taunt, I use it just like anybody else. When the mob is pulled to camp, before breaking mes and as soon as the mob turns to somebody else. It's still an effective "oh shit" way to snap a mob and save somebody's life vs mobs that are blue to you. Most of the time, if you have DPS in your group, by the time they get aggro again - the mob is dead. Now when you can also do that to red mobs, it's a nice thing to have. I'm not saying it's a replacement for proc by any means. It just helps.

I'd rather have the 6 AC. For the same reason I would rather equip a Skull Shaped Barbute or a Crafted Helm instead of an Executioner's Hood. It has more AC. I proc like crazy already. My starting DEX sucked but I'm at 100 unbuffed with minimal effort. So we're looking at a slight chance that you might proc one more time per fight or a slight increase in AC. Either one sounds marginal. 100 DEX has been more than enough in the groups I've been in to maintain aggro even vs monks and rogues.

I guess it's a matter of preference. For some small race Warriors, it would seem like a waste vs stamina. For Ogres, yeah, I could see that DEX would be nice if you are going to max stamina anyway.

[Thulghor]

Was going to post a big long spiel on this, but decided against it. As it stands, you need procs to hold aggro as a warrior here, and procs are more frequent with higher dex. Weapons that do stuns or ability/armor drains also help that much more with threat.

[Thulghor]

I could have sworn that this whole "need procs to gain any threat on a mob" thing wasn't that bad in classic and Kunark...

[Noselacri]

None of it makes a visible difference, especially this early. You could put all your points in charisma and be a fine warrior. It's just easier to pinpoint what's best in a given scenario than what's most suitable for one individual's playstyle. Either way, people who have personal preferences and don't care much for the last, barely noticeable edge tend not to figure into these kinds of discussions where min-maxing is obviously the topic.