Real Question here

[Daldaen]

96-hour windows are pant-on-head retarded.

[sanforce]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

96-hour windows are pant-on-head retarded.

96 hour windows aren't great, but it prevented these crazy FTE-sock-fests that we are getting with 16 hour windows.

Shorter windows would also prevent the huge amount of time waste that we are seeing under the current rules, but it will increase the issues with the FTE races.

I'd really like to see either, 16 hour windows turn into weekend long stents trying to get mobs. Longer windows would slow the game back down, and shorter windows would create specific times to focus on the game - either is better than the current setup.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by sanforce [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

96 hour windows aren't great, but it prevented these crazy FTE-sock-fests that we are getting with 16 hour windows.

Shorter windows would also prevent the huge amount of time waste that we are seeing under the current rules, but it will increase the issues with the FTE races.

I'd really like to see either, 16 hour windows turn into weekend long stents trying to get mobs. Longer windows would slow the game back down, and shorter windows would create specific times to focus on the game - either is better than the current setup.

I'd prefer the opposite.

We get 30-60min windows, windows almost all overlap, many spawns overlap.

It will force rushing, prioritizing targets, and mobilizing after kills.

Alternatively, remove respawns all together and just do sim-repops. Remove the bag limit if you do this.

Really though, Velious will be the fix for a lot of this crap. When there are many more targets, much more valuable targets, and targets that have lots of HP leading to longer kill times.

When guilds are hung up on Klandicar for 10 minutes, or NToV for multiple hours... it will allow less hardcore guilds to kill Gorenaire/Talendor/Sev. Atleast that is the hope.

[Rooj]

*facepalm* This thread must make the staff furious. They keep trying to satisfy people, even to the current point where the most people possible are satisfied, and then they have to read the shit in this thread.

Just accept the damn raid scene until Velious. I seriously doubt the staff is even considering changing anything until then.

[sanforce]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*facepalm* This thread must make the staff furious. They keep trying to satisfy people, even to the current point where the most people possible are satisfied, and then they have to read the shit in this thread.

Just accept the damn raid scene until Velious. I seriously doubt the staff is even considering changing anything until then.

I bet it doesn't make the staff furious - there are always improvements to be made and the community is allowed to express opinions about the direction of the server. And I'm not arguing that improvements haven't been made - the class system definitely opens the game up for a lot of people and preventing people from logging out at target prevents the whole instant engage scenario. But forcing mobs to spawn anytime between Friday-Sunday is, in many ways, a downgrade from the previous system. People who consistently care about helping their guild are forced to concentrate on EQ all weekend long - a sure fire scenario for burnout. The staff want more people to enjoy the game, I think it's counter productive to frame the raid scene in a way that causes maximum burnout.

So, the solution is to either reduce variance and have concentrated raid times over the weekends, or spread it all out again to reduce socking - it worked back then, no reason it wouldn't now.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by sanforce [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As it stands, these 16 hour windows force huge groups of people to sit around hoping to be the quickest off the line, from Friday afternoon through Sunday night. It's not fun, and it's already pushing people away from the P99 raid game.

I hear you, man. We need more dedicated raiders on this server.

Originally Posted by Rool

This thread must make the staff furious. They keep trying to satisfy people, even to the current point where the most people possible are satisfied

The R system has been a huge success. The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine? Those not so much.

Chest has the right idea IMO: make the repops pure FFA (including VP), then split all of the normal spawns between C and R. Class C can engage in whatever retardation they wish, the R guilds can continue to get our vending machine handouts, and success on repops will determine who is good and who is bad.

[sanforce]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The R system has been a huge success. The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine? Those not so much.

Chest has the right idea IMO: make the repops pure FFA (including VP), then split all of the normal spawns between C and R. Class C can engage in whatever retardation they wish, the R guilds can continue to get our vending machine handouts, and success on repops will determine who is good and who is bad.

The only real issue with the class system is the lack of mobility, which was originally intended. Guilds are proving that they are much more competitive now, with their Class R raid experience, yet there is still zero guild mobility in the last 8 months. Look at Taken, they easily handled last night's VS, and are currently COTH ducking for Gorenair! That's a guild that has proven they are both capable of competing with Class C and are ready to stoop to the depths of "competition" to get their pixels, yet they are more than content to stick with Class R.

The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine have completely backfired. The server staff used to care about reducing retarded sock-fests, because it is a huge waste of everyone's time. But now sock-fests seem to be encouraged? I don't get it.

[Daldaen]

Sock-fests are encouraged only because Class C wanted them.

When they came to the table, people suggested a complete rotation to prevent the need to track entire windows but instead check hourly or bi-hourly whether the mob had spawned. Naturally IB and TMO shot down a rotation system, which led us to where we are currently with the Class system.

If there were no Class C/R, and everything were rotated and you were allowed to do your ridiculous competition in VP, with FFA respawns, there would be no sock-fests unless you want them in VP.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by sanforce [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine have completely backfired. The server staff used to care about reducing retarded sock-fests, because it is a huge waste of everyone's time. But now sock-fests seem to be encouraged? I don't get it.

Tracking for 96 hours is also a huge waste of everyone's time. I'm sure Sirken and Derubael have Rool's attitude: "We reduced the variance and so you asshats started socking. If you want to stop wasting time, talk to each other and stop doing it". Phiren has a post on the raid discussion forums which was completely ignored by everyone who is doing the CoH ducking.

It's just not an easy problem to fix: the Kunark targets are simply too easy. I think the only legitimate competition is repops, an idea which was actually shot down during the negotiations last year because a) TMO/FE knew they wouldn't get nearly as many mobs if they weren't able to neckbeard out and b) TMO/FE claimed they wouldn't have anything better to do with their lives if they couldn't poopsock. In hind sight, all those posts by Unbrella about how he loved the competition with TMO look more than a little silly. Or would, if they weren't deleted. CONSPIRACY NP.

Quite frankly, I would even be willing to accept the Doraf system (8 repops a month, no normal spawns, everything FFA) as long as all L50+ characters got teleported to a city zone so the advantage of camping 10 different alt armies at every target was minimized. Not that my opinion really matters.

[sanforce]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sock-fests are encouraged only because Class C wanted them.

When they came to the table, people suggested a complete rotation to prevent the need to track entire windows but instead check hourly or bi-hourly whether the mob had spawned. Naturally IB and TMO shot down a rotation system, which led us to where we are currently with the Class system.

If there were no Class C/R, and everything were rotated and you were allowed to do your ridiculous competition in VP, with FFA respawns, there would be no sock-fests unless you want them in VP.

Sock-fests are necessities to Class C (with short windows), it's competitive, and no loot means a failing Class C guild. But trust me, I'm in Class C, and I'd say the majority of us don't "want" sock-fests. Also, don't get me started on a complete rotation, we both know that's not what EQ was intended to be - a single instanced world means competing for a finite number of spawns. The day P99 goes to a complete rotation will be my last day on the server (but maybe that's what needs to happen.)

A possible partial solution is to add variance back to VP, but not outside of VP. I also wouldn't be opposed to FFA VP repops, to get other guilds in there and maybe increase the chance that they will jump to Class C (the intended result of the class system). I still want more competition, even with IBs recent success.

edit: And yes, I also know that EQ wasn't intended to be stuck on Kunark for 4 years. But it creates some interesting problems!